Jenifer Tucker returns to discuss tennis urban legends for USTA Leagues. We tackle misconceptions about lineup requirements, self-rate disqualifications, and the mysterious NTRP algorithm that determines your tennis rating.

You can learn more about ratings on the USTA website: NTRP Ratings Questions & Answers

Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board of Directors. She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee and Regulation Subcommittee and previously served on the USTA Constitution & Rules Committee.

At the Southern sectional level, Jenifer most recently served as the chair of the USTA Southern Adult League Committee and was a member of that committee for five terms. She is also the long-time chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee. A former USTA Arkansas president, she continues to serve on the USTA Arkansas Board as a past president and as chair of the USTA Arkansas Adult League and League Grievance committees.

An attorney and resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas, Jenifer is involved in League tennis in Northwest Arkansas after serving as the areas’s local league coordinator for five years. She is also a 4.5 player!

Here’s a complete transcript of our conversation about USTA League Urband Legends:

Carolyn: 0:06

Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin and we have Jenifer Tucker back on the podcast to discuss urban legends. She did an episode for us previously on self rates and we had so many more questions that we thought we’d do another episode on urban legends. On urban legends, Jenifer is the vice president of the USTA Southern Board of Directors. She also serves on the USTA Adult League Committee. She was a former president of USTA Arkansas and she was a local league coordinator and a 4-5 player. Okay, let’s start with some rapid fire questions about urban legends. Erin, will you start us off?Erin: 0:41

Okay, here’s my first rapid fire question about an urban legend In certain parts of the country players are required to play straight up or order of strength. Is that true? That is false, elaborate. So the reason I’m asking this question is because we play in North Carolina. We have a lot of players that come from the Northeast and I’ve had players at our club say you know, our number one doubles has to be the, the, the strongest team, and then it goes from number one doubles down to two, three and singles are supposed to play strongest on one and strongest on two. In our area we flip courts all the time based on who we’re going to play. But some people have said I heard it’s a rule that you’re supposed to play in order of strength.Jenifer: 1:29

Yeah, I think in certain areas of the country you can certainly have traditions or you can certainly have groups of people who prefer doing it a certain way, but there cannot be any kind of rule in USTA League requiring any sort of order of strength lineup.Carolyn: 1:48

And we did a self-rate episode where we kind of discussed this, but I thought that was important to also include in our Urban Legends, which is you need three strikes as a self-rate or appeal to be de-cued. That’s actually true.Jenifer: 2:00

As a self-rated player, you have to have a sufficient number of strikes to be disqualified and that is when your dynamic rating, or the rating to 100th of a point, hits a certain threshold three different times. As a self-rated player, grievance, but that would be specifically limited to whether you have inappropriately not disclosed some of your tennis experience in your self-rate questionnaire.Carolyn: 2:31

Can you tell us real quick what is a?Jenifer: 2:32

strike. So dynamic ratings are hundredth to the hundredth of a point. So for example, 3.01 to 3.5. Every time you play another player, the computer is going to have an expected outcome of that match. So for example, if a 3.01, a 3.5 player and a 3.49, a 3.5 player play each other, the expected outcome is 6-0, 6-0. For every game that differs, you may very well, for example, have the 3.49 player winning 6-1, 6-1, in which case that player’s dynamic rating would actually go down. The 3.01 player would actually go up. So those are the general parameters. When a self-rated player generates a certain threshold above their assigned rating, they will get a strike. So three strikes means you’re disqualified at that level.Carolyn: 3:41

Okay, that’s great. I have another self-rate question as far as an urban legend and I’ve always kind of noticed this myself, but I wanted to hear what you have to say and that is you can’t get DQ’d at the actual state championship, sectionals or nationals. Like I’ve seen a lot of people, right Erin, get DQ’d after the state championship, or they go to sectionals and they beat all these people, but like, let’s say, you get your third strike at your very first match at the sectionals, do you get DQ’d at that point or at the end of the tournament?Jenifer: 4:15

In Southern section you would get disqualified at the conclusion of the championship and those matches would stand. But the national regs allow the sections to determine if they would prefer to run those calculations while in the championship.Erin: 4:31

It would have helped me if people could get disqualified during the tournament, because that happened to us, to Carolyn and I on our 3-5 team, right, yes, yes, she got DQ’d afterwards, but it would have been great if she got DQ’d before the end of the state championship before she beat us.Jenifer: 4:48

I would say that you should submit a regulation change proposal, but probably not best justification to use your personal experience.Erin: 4:58

Oh, jennifer’s going to love this question. This is an urban legend about coaching. This is an urban legend about coaching. So some people think in adult rec tennis that coaching is allowed in certain USTA matches for our adult rec players. Now I would argue that I would like to see that happen at some point. But talk about the urban legend. Is there any coaching in USTA adult rec matches?Jenifer: 5:22

No coaching is allowed in USTA league matches and I’m not really sure what you could benefit from that, Erin.Erin: 5:30

Well, I’ve said it before so much, I’ve said it before Probably much, I’ve said it before Probably not a lot, but it would make it interesting and I see all the reasons not to do it, but not to bring up another Carolyn singles loss in the past.Erin: 5:48

But we were at States and she was playing a very tall woman and she was slicing and won the first set 6-0, right, yes, 6-0. 6-0. And then the woman changed her entire game and she started coming to the net and Carolyn decided she was going to change her game because that woman, you know, had a different strategy and Carolyn stopped her slicing and she started trying to lob her and the woman was like six feet tall. It didn’t work, and so I wanted so badly to tell Carolyn to go back to what was working, but I couldn’t and I’m not a cheater and I really wanted to follow her into the bathroom between sets and tell her what to do, but I don’t know that it would have helped. But that’s why I oftentimes think I wish someone could tell me something about the player that I’m playing that might help me.Carolyn: 6:33

Yeah, I’m dying out here, exactly.Jenifer: 6:35

Well, the first that I’m playing, that might help me. Yeah, I’m dying out here, exactly. Well, the first thing I was going to say is perhaps Carolyn did figure that out, and she just didn’t execute. Perhaps that could be the case. The other is what’s so great about tennis is you’re out there by yourself problem solving, and I think that’s that’s one of the rationales that no coaching is allowed. And it’s again adult league tennis.Carolyn: 6:53

So it’s very important allowed and it’s again adult league tennis.Erin: 6:55

So it’s very important. Yes, exactly. Oh yeah, the rec match is important. Yes, not the coaching, the match.Carolyn: 7:02

The match. Okay, I have another one. If I beat a player 6-0, 6-0, I should get bombed.Jenifer: 7:07

So I think part of the discussion when we talk about the ratings may have answered that. But again, each match that you play has an expected outcome and to the extent that you do better or worse than that expected outcome, you’re going to either raise or lower your dynamic rating. The fact of the matter is there are 50 different little ratings within each assigned rating and some players are always supposed to lose those matches if they’re at the lower end of that rating. So a 6-0, 6-0 loss or win should be maybe exactly what the computer projected.Erin: 7:47

It’s funny this was not on our list, but it makes me think there are a lot of people that believe if they play singles it somehow helps their rating, right. So it’s not necessarily that you’re playing singles or you’re playing doubles or you know. It really has to do with the computer. If I’m playing singles against Carolyn, if we didn’t know each other, we’re opponents. The computer still has an idea of what should happen in that match. It has nothing to do with oh, because I’m on a singles court now.Jenifer: 8:17

I have a better chance of getting bumped correct. That’s right. I mean it’s going to be an expected outcome, but clearly to the extent that there’s a difference because there’s somebody else on the court that dynamic to consider. So singles obviously it’s opponent versus opponent, whereas in a doubles match all four players dynamics will be considered. But that’s the only difference. There will be an expected outcome in each case.Erin: 8:40

So I think this answers it, but one of the other questions further down on our list is if I play number one like number one line, I will get bumped.Jenifer: 8:49

Yeah, again, I think a lot of those urban legends are geared towards if this, then I get bumped, if this, then I don’t get bumped. And the bottom line is, I think, if you just think about it in summary, as there is an expected outcome based upon the dynamic ratings of the players on the court and if you beat or don’t beat that expected outcome, you go up or down and that’s really all that affects that number.Carolyn: 9:14

The next one is if you play college tennis, you are automatically a 5-0. And I know that’s wrong, because I’ve played some people that play college tennis and they were not a 5-0.Jenifer: 9:24

On the self-rate questionnaire, there are going to be minimum levels that are assigned to specific levels of experience high school and then drill down how much high school did you play? At what championship level did you play high school? And the same is true in college what level of college did you play? So certainly there are going to be minimum assigned ratings based upon the experience, based on the age, and then, even though a rating may be assigned for example, if my experience points to 5.0, I can still file a self-rate appeal, and if my section self-rate appeals committee grants my appeal to 4.5 from a 5.0, then that’s a way I can legitimately get a different rating as well. So, yeah, there are general rules and general guidelines in terms of what experience will yield a certain assignment of minimum rating, but there are a variety of factors in play, as well as the ability to file a self-rate appeal.Erin: 10:17

So I used to think that any like we’ve faced D1 college players before, but not college tennis players I used to actually think if you were a D1 college player of some sport or pro like we’ve actually interviewed pro professional athletes like in different sports baseball you know whatever that they had to come in at a certain rating. Is that incorrect?Jenifer: 10:43

Yeah, there’s currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire that asks about college football, for example, or college basketball. There are routinely high-level college athletes playing tennis and it doesn’t necessarily mean, because you may be an all-pro wide receiver, that you can hit a tennis ball well. So I think that’s the reason. But no, there’s currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire involving college sports other than racket sports.Erin: 11:09

So all those D1 volleyball players that I’m facing, I know they’re so good, they’re so good.Jenifer: 11:14

Yeah, and when you have, when you’re playing a sport that has a lot of that, has an element of hand-eye coordination, when you self-rate, the guidelines do say that you should be mindful of the ability that you have based upon those sports and your ability and your probably capacity to improve, and then you should self-rate accordingly. But that’s a should and not must, and so many players don’t necessarily rate it allowing that time for improvement.Carolyn: 11:42

And this is kind of a follow-up question I did have real quick, which was it’s your section that determines your appeal of your self-rate. So I go in and do my self-rate form. We live in the Southern section, which is what? What is it? Jennifer, 25% of adult players are in this section, but it’s Southern that will determine whether or not the appeal gets approved. So everybody across the country that’s listening, if they’re not in the Southern section, their own section will do that. Is that correct?Jenifer: 12:08

That’s right. Each section will have a committee or a group of people who will review those self-rate appeals, and in Southern we have committees that do that.Erin: 12:20

Okay, Last question about Urban Legends, even though we could talk all day about it.Jenifer: 12:33

Okay, last question about urban legends, even though we could talk all day about it. But are the third party websites there? Are multiple sites that maybe some of us crazy captains look at for people’s dynamic ratings. Are those legit? But USTA does not endorse NTRP ratings that are generated from any other third-party sites. The third-party websites cannot accurately recreate the algorithm and, as a result, we don’t use those at all for any USTA processes, including grievance processes.Carolyn: 12:57

So during your grievance like when we file a grievance we shouldn’t say this person has a tennis record of something.Jenifer: 13:04

No, that’s fake news.Erin: 13:07

That is not going to fly with the grievance committee. Yeah.Carolyn: 13:12

Yeah, that’s perfect. I do have a question. You don’t have to answer this, but to me this whole algorithm, your NTRP dynamic rating, it seems like something in a black box. How can we learn more about it?Jenifer: 13:29

I think that the basic information that you’re looking for is on the USTA website. There’s an NTRP set of frequently asked questions that give a fairly detailed amount of guidance. I think maybe what players should remember is just go out and play. There’s really no players, I know, want so badly to know their rating to 100s, but I would ask to what end. But there has to be some sort of algorithm and some sort of basis, because our sport, our league tennis, is based upon fair-based play and so many recreational sports are not. You could play in a I will just pick out a sport kickball league and I could walk on the court and never having played kickball and be playing a professional kickball player. So we really work hard in league tennis to have fair-based plays. There has to be a system, and I think this is the best system we have, and to the extent that players are trying to find out more and more and more information again, I would ask why? And let’s just go play.Carolyn: 14:32

Great answer. Why do you think Erin? Because we’re crazy league players. Exactly.Erin: 14:36

No, and I agree with that 100%. I get into the, you know, I want to know who we’re facing and what their ratings are and where I should best put my players and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, if you are in it for the reason which you should be, which is competitive but fun Um, and you have a sport and you’re an adult, um, and you’re outside or inside playing the sport of tennis, just enjoy it and don’t try to overthink it. I just think a lot of us are a little type A and like to control it all Competitive yeah.Erin: 15:06

But yes, 100 percent, you’re there to have fun.Jenifer: 15:08

Yeah, it’s a lot of fun to talk about, but again, I think the USDA provides a fair amount of information on the website If folks will go to that.Erin: 15:18

Those frequently asked questions Then we wouldn’t have so many urban legends, if they did their homework, that’s true.Carolyn: 15:27

Thanks again to Jennifer for coming on the podcast. We hope you check out our website, which is SecondServePodcastcom. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.