Do you forfeit a court early or wait until onsite? What happens when a forfeit becomes “never mind” and your team isn’t ready?

Hear the stories and tell us your best practices!

Here’s a full transcript of our conversation with Gin regarding forfeits and captains’ dilemmas

Carolyn: 0:06
Hi, this is Carolyn, and I’m here with Erin. And we appreciate Gin coming back on the podcast to discuss forfeiting courts, whether you should do it early, whether you should wait, whether it depends on the situation. Gin started off as a 3-5 and was so good, she has now been bumped to a 5-0. So, Erin, do you want to start us off and tell us about your situation?

Erin: 0:28
Yeah, I’ll start us, and we’re gonna talk about the most recent and the reason why this came up. We’re gonna talk about the most recent time that this happened to us, and which is why Gin is becoming our regular, which I love. Um we wrote lots of notes down when we were at States recently. Our both our 8.5, 18 over and 40 over uh 8.5 combo teams went to states at the same time, same weekend. We had the exact same schedules. We were, you know, sending people all over to different courts and it was, you know, just a lot going on. But something, a really interesting situation happened, um, which is what spurred this conversation. We got a phone call before our very first match on the very first day of the tournament. And the captain who we were facing, the opposing team, the captain called and said that she was forfeiting a court. Not, I think I’m going to forfeit, I’m for I’m having to forfeit a court. One of her players had an emergency. She had to turn around and go back to Raleigh. And so then I started scrambling, and we had all a house full of people. Um, there was like, I don’t know, eight or ten of us in house. And I was like, okay, Jin, you text so-and-so that’s on her way here, and and and someone else was doing something, you know. So we were all kind of scrambling because we had to let our first we had to figure out which line we were gonna get basically take a forfeit win for because they were forfeiting a line. So we had to like decide that based on who was there and who was coming. You know, there was just it was a lot of logistics. So like three of us, I felt like we’re running all over the house, you know, in different directions. And I also, we actually heard from that captain through another player of ours. And me as the captain, I wanted to talk directly to her, which that’s one of the things that we’ll talk about because she clearly said, I have to forfeit a court. And she was nice enough to do it because we were, it was about three hours from our house, two, two to three hours. Um, and it was like an 11 a.m. match. So we didn’t necessarily have to stay there overnight. Like people were on their way there from Raleigh. And so she was nice enough to reach out and say, hey, I’m forfeiting court. One of my players had an emergency. We don’t have enough to field three courts. So this is three courts of doubles. But I wanted to speak to her directly because I wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth. Because I have had a different situation, which we’ll talk about too, happen to me and it backfired on me. So I was like, I’m gonna contact her directly and I’m gonna speak to her. So I’m gonna let Jin take over. But what happened was we showed up at the courts and Jin was sitting at a table. You got there before me. Yeah. And I think I went up to her and I said something. I was trying to try to tell someone the other day. Uh, I walked up to her and I think I said something like, Hey, no matter what happens, like smile or, you know, it was just like a, I don’t know, I it was some sort of advice, but she kind of looked at me and was like, gave me the eyes, like, oh, there’s this lady sitting at my table, and she’s like kind of gesturing. And I was like, Well, that was the woman who I talked to. And so she was like, Hey, let’s go talk out in the parking lot. And so we walked out, and then I’m gonna let Gin take over. But what ended up happening was she could field enough quartz.

Gin: 3:15
Well, she’s we were sitting at the table. Uh, she is from our area, local area, so we did not know each other before that day, but you know, we were friendly, know a lot of the same people, you know. So we were just chatting and um and she kind of I guess she had let us know that a how long before the match, an hour, hour and a half before when you guys were sitting at the time. When she had initially two or three. But then maybe now it’s only like 30 minutes before the match, she said, you know what? I I actually might be able to field the three lines. Can you guys do that? And I kind of was like, Yeah, we were like, What? Uh um, and so you know, Erin and I then were scrambling and trying to figure out like what do we do? You know, this is states, like we want the win, like, but we also, you know, like if she can field the lines, like could we scramble and you know, make it happen? And in the end, you know, we couldn’t. Our our players were um, you know, too far flung and and not in their right clothes, watching husbands’ matches, different things. And she did stand by what she had told us and did not he she did forfeit a line, but what we was honest, she was she was honest. And it wouldn’t have been I don’t know that I would go so far as to say it would be dishonest had she not, but what she could have done is said, hey guys, I had someone able to come. I can fill those filled those three lines. I am going to put them in. And and she could have done that. And you know, at states, you put those lines in that system. And if we couldn’t fill three lines, we would have had to forfeit. So the lesson here is even if they say they’re gonna forfeit, you probably should have a backup plan. Because I mean, you know, this could be a gamesmanship thing. I mean, you know, you could if someone was and and we know those people are out there, you know, you could do that. You could say, hey, we’re gonna forfeit a line, and then be like, oh, just kidding.

Erin: 4:55
Oh, just kidding, we aren’t, we were actually here.

Gin: 4:57
You if you have to be ready to play those lines at at states.

Carolyn: 5:01
Wait a second. This doesn’t make any sense to me.

Erin: 5:03
Yeah, because I want to talk about a local situation too. Yeah.

Carolyn: 5:06
If Erin had a text from the other captain saying, I need to forfeit this line, and then all of a sudden that captain changes 30 minutes before the match and said, Never mind, I don’t need to forfeit. The rule is Erin, too bad, so sad for Erin.

Erin: 5:24
Basically. So the reason why again this topic came up was we uh we happen to have on our team, our local, our local league coordinator is on our team. She’s a she’s a four, four, five, just got bumped to five. Oh, so shout out to her. But she, I think you consulted with her, Jin, and was like, what do we do? Because we also had the funny part of that. This is we had three captains that weekend. We had Jin and myself, and then our friend Jill, because we had two teams going. And we all had three different opinions. It was really funny. I think, you know, one was like, no way, we got the four, you know, she forfeited, and there’s and I was just like, I don’t know what you know, what’s the right thing to do? And then the other captain was like, it’s just tennis, let’s just play the line. So it was funny because even between the three of us, you know, we were like, what do we do? So Jin was smart, and you know, instead of just emotionally thinking about it like me, which I was like, well, you know, what’s you know, what’s the right thing for everybody to do? She was like, Well, let’s ask, you know, let’s ask the coordinator. And so she did say, like, she could have walked up and said, I’m putting in three lines.

Gin: 6:23
Like, if you don’t have three where she said was it doesn’t really matter what anybody said before, it matters what’s entered with that entered in the enter.

Carolyn: 6:31
And this is North Carolina, so every state may be different. Yeah. So this is just for North Carolina that this happened, but I would like to know how it works in other states, or if anybody else listening across the country has had this similar issue and it, you know, maybe somebody wasn’t honest afterwards, right? And said, you know, actually, I never said that to her. Yes.

Erin: 6:51
Yeah. And I didn’t have it in a text. I mean, I guess, you know, Carolyn, your question was, well, what if you have it in, you know, I think someone probably would have stuck by that, even a site coordinator at states. You don’t think so, Gin? She’s making a face like she’s not sure.

Gin: 7:04
I kind of think, and I felt like what that coordinator was telling me, um, is I think all that matters is what gets entered in that line. And and, you know, you enter three lines and they don’t have three lines to answer back with.

Erin: 7:16
And yeah. The problem too is um, once we knew, because it was two to three hours ahead of time, once we knew and we decided which line it was going to be, those those players let their guard down. They were like, they didn’t eat the same breakfast that they would have normally eaten. They didn’t have, you know, even if they had their tennis bag in their car, they were in flip-flops, like there was a lot going on. One was driving in, you know, she could have stopped and gotten an extra cup of coffee and ended up being late. You know, whatever the situation is, they really were like, we’re not playing. They weren’t in, you know, killer competition mode. And so even if we had been able to, I still felt like, which we couldn’t. I think I don’t know if I said that, but we couldn’t end up. I mean, and she was like, I’ll stick by what I said because I was like, I got people at other courts. Like one, like Gin said, one was watching her husband because he was also at states. One was just taking her sweet time to get there because she wasn’t playing again until the next day. So she was coming in for that match and then staying overnight with us and then not playing again. So she was just like, you know, not she wasn’t even answering our texts at that point. She was just taking her own sweet time, you know.

Carolyn: 8:21
So what would you suggest doing if that happened again? Would you then tell this them to text the state coordinator or someone at the tournament to say, hey, let them know that this is being forfeited so that everybody’s on the same page?

Erin: 8:35
That’s actually, I hadn’t thought about that, but that’s probably a very good idea. But um, I think what Jin said too was you gotta be ready. Like even if someone says, and but I think what Jin said too was the language should be, I may have to forfeit, just to prepare you. So I’ll go to our local. Um this happened years and years ago um when I was a three-five, but I was a captain of a team and I did the same thing, but this was at the local league. And I will tell you one caveat to the state of North Carolina is if you can’t field a court, if you forfeit a court, you pay $100. It’s basically a fine for not being able to get at the state tournament. At the state tournament. Or the state championships. State championship. You literally have to give them $100. In fact, our whole team, when we were doing lineups before we left, was like, what if one of our players gets hurt or can’t show or whatever? We decided that there was like, I don’t know, 18 of us or 16 or something. And we were like, okay, everybody has to throw in seven dollars to forfeit a court. Like we did the math ahead of time, but yeah. Um, so that that is, you know, one big difference. So I think lesson learned in the future, I would not, I would, I would do it right there on site, and that kind of stinks. Um, but you know, that’s just the way it is.

Gin: 9:42
So but I think I think, you know, if that happened to us again where someone else said we’re gonna forfeit a court, I think I would go up to the desk and say, this team has told us they’re forfeiting a court. And what is what how is that official? When is that official? You know, ask that official question. And is it is it not official until they’ve entered it into the you know, line forfeit, or or if they come up here now and verify that is that, you know, I I would I would find out from whatever official body you are governed by there um when the moment is that that is kind of legal, because until that moment, you gotta be prepared to play.

Erin: 10:17
Yeah. I think that’s the moment, big lesson learned for us. So, but um, so there was a local um um situation that happened a long time ago. And I did what I thought was the nice thing. I let the um opposing captain know, same, same as this one did for me, you know, early in the morning, like two or three hours ahead of time, because I didn’t want someone to go, you know, people may play daytime tennis, but they’re still working or they got kids to take take care of. I mean, nobody wants anybody’s time wasted. Um, and so I didn’t want to do it at match time when everybody was already there, had their big breakfast, you know, ready to go. So I reached out to her and I just said, hey, I’m gonna have to forfeit a line. And I specifically said I’m gonna forfeit a singles court because I only had one player out. So I wasn’t gonna do a doubles court, right? So then I got there, we all got there and we were warming up, and one of my other players didn’t show up. Not the one that we had to forfeit, but someone just got their days mixed up. So then I was down two players. So had I not done anything, what ended up happening was because I verbally told her I was forfeiting a singles line, what I wanted to do is I wanted to reshuffle things. So I wanted to play two singles and two doubles because it was a five court match. And so that would have given me my team a better chance playing more courts, you know, you have to win three out of five. So I thought, well, if we can play four, our, you know, mathematically our chances are better to win the match. Right. And she said, absolutely not. You have already forfeited a singles court. So what was happening was once I had one other player out, all I could do was field three doubles lines, you know, and so we had to win all of them to win the match, which was, you know, scary going into it. That’s a lot of pressure when you know every single line has to win.

Gin: 11:55
And in fairness to her, she probably had the singles player not come not show up. And so personnel would be different, you know. Exactly. And so I I, you know, I hate that she did that and told you, no, absolutely not, but I kind of get it. Yeah, you know, I do too now that I say it. Yeah, you know, you I mean, we think about our teams and we know who if we had, you know, left a singles player home and then we’ve got people who are like they can’t play together or whatever it is, you know. So I I kind of get so I think our our takeaway is I think it’s it’s such a dilemma, right? Do you just not say anything and let these people come out and you know forfeit at the moment? I mean, that’s gonna really make them mad. Um, but I think what I would do in in this situation is let the other captain know, hey, weird things have happened, so I can’t officially tell you this yet, but I think I am going to have to forfeit a singles line today. Um, but you know, I’ve had the strange things happen where that shifted. So I I I really am gonna have to wait until game time, but I do want to let you know that just in case, you know, someone on your team is, you know, has something super important they’re missing or something like that, and you want to have a different backup player, you know, come. I I do strongly think, you know, that this is what’s gonna happen. But yeah, I think you kind of gotta hold that official word.

Erin: 13:09
Almost disagree with you, which is weird because I almost never do. But um, first of all, you know who would never think about this and do it at game time? Men. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like, we could talk about this for 20 more minutes, but you know who they would show up and be like, sorry, dude. Yeah. Not, you know, I mean, they could forfeit the whole match and be like, sorry, dude, and then have a beer, right? Um, but I did have one other kind of cute story. Um, I felt really terrible because at match time I forfeited a court locally and I felt bad. I went up to the captain and I said, Oh my gosh, I am so sorry. One of my players was sick this morning, but she said, I’m gonna be there. Well, she ended up falling back asleep and like she was ended up, she probably would have been useless anyway. But she was really trying to be there because she was being a team player, but she literally turned her alarm off and didn’t wake up. And so she never showed and I had to forfeit. So I go up to the opposing captain, I’m like, here’s our lineup. I’m really sorry, we’re gonna forfeit, you know, doubles three or whatever. And she she saw how distraught I was and how bad I felt. She was like, girl, let’s hug it out. And she literally gave me a hug. And I’ll never forget that. But I was like, you won’t get that from a lot of captains. I mean, I might do that because I’m like, yeah, that’s a win for us already, right? But I would still even feel bad for our players like that showed up, you know? But yeah, we need to be a little more like guys, I think is the whole, right? What would your husband do, Carolyn, in this situation? Oh, I don’t know. I mean he wouldn’t care.

Carolyn: 14:32
I don’t think he would. Yeah, he’d probably just sit there and chat. I don’t care.

Gin: 14:37
I feel like men forfeit courts all the time regular seasons. Because they don’t plan anything. I guess. Is that it? Yes, I’ve been on mixed teams and you know, and and or teams that men are captaining and is so different. Yeah. They don’t, I mean, it’s like the night before you’re trying to figure out. Um, or or friends of mine are on men’s teams, and so I’ll watch the interactions and they are literally texting like that morning, hey, are we are you know, hey, are we playing today? Yeah, we’re playing tonight. Or you what was your, you know, I mean, it’s are you a little last minute?

Carolyn: 15:05
It’s or you know what I’ve noticed with men is that they’re willing to reschedule. Yes. Versus I’ve I’ve even had to fill in as a captain just a few times because you know how I feel about captaining teams. It’s like the worst non-pay job ever, sometimes. I mean, I love captains and anyone willing to do it, um, I think it’s great. But uh, I was trying to say, hey, they’re not available today, they’re available the the rest of the week. Is there any way your player can play the rest of the week? And the answer back was, we’ll be at the courts tomorrow. Exactly. And there was like not even a response to that. And so I just kind of thought that was funny. Yeah. I was like, oh, okay.

Erin: 15:44
We um not to say one other story, but I did just think of something else. Um, I uh again, a long time ago, at the beginning of our season, we knew that we couldn’t field um a match during it was like the week of Memorial Day. And we knew it from day one. We actually have the rules have changed in our area now because situations like this that I’m gonna say has happened too many times and too many people got upset. The rule now is if you have a um match scheduled during like Easter or Mother’s Day or, you know, some holiday, our local league now will say, hey, reschedule those matches if, you know, if if even one team can’t field. Like it used to be that you had to get the other captain to agree to it. And so we knew at the very beginning of the season, which is in March for us, that in May we were not going to be able to field for a certain week. Everybody was out of town, you know, going to the beach, whatever. And at the time we were not allowed to reschedule unless both captains agreed. And that captain stuck by it for two months. I would just like, hey, have you changed your mind? We’re really trying to work with you. Could we play it early? Could we just absolutely not? And so the lead local lead coordinator here said, You have to show up that morning and forfeit on site because if she doesn’t bring her entire team out, you could potentially get the win. So, did you? Her whole team was there. She was having a practice. I marched out on that court and I was like, Well, I’m here in person to forfeit my courts. And she was like, Thank you. You should see how I feel about her when I run into her at the grocery store.

Gin: 17:11
She really wanted that win.

Carolyn: 17:14
Wait, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. So even if someone says to you ahead of time, we’re gonna forfeit, even locally, let’s say, or is it different at the local level versus the state championship?

Erin: 17:28
Everyone’s different, but that’s what we want to know.

Carolyn: 17:30
But at our at our like every place is is different. Um, just because I think it’s you know, it’s so nice, you know, for people to forfeit ahead. You want to encourage people to forfeit ahead of time. And that makes it so that there’s there’s no benefit to forfeiting ahead, like other than, you know, like I just don’t understand why if if a captain says they’re gonna forfeit, that’s it.

Erin: 17:55
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of what Rebel has talked to you and I about a lot, Carolyn, about rules. And he says, you know, this is a game of courtesy. And so I think we even take it to that degree, right? Like we want to be courteous of people’s time and not to have them get out to courts and then not be able to play, but it will backfire on you. It can backfire on you.

Gin: 18:15
I think that I would be curious, and I hate to bring up something that maybe we don’t know the answer to, but I think at states, it’s that’s clear. I think it is what’s put in the lineup. That’s my understanding. And and like Carolyn said, I think, well, and like Carolyn said, I’d love to know if other states are different or but that seems to be for us like that’s a clear, it’s it’s in the app, that’s what matters. But at a local level, you know, when a lot of it is done through word of mouth and um, you know, like makeup matches, for example, you know, you do like if you have agreed to play on Tuesday at this court at this time and someone doesn’t show up, there’s no app that’s put in. So that is a word of mouth communication mechanism, you know, um, apparatus for organizing matches. And so I kind of think it would be different with a local if someone forfeited in a text and you could say, hey, here’s the text. You know, Jane texted me the other day and said we won’t have three lines, you know, four lines there, and so we didn’t bring four lines. I think that would be a good thing.

Erin: 19:12
I think if you have evidence like that, that’s my that would be my guess. That that just seems like common sense, you know.

Carolyn: 19:18
But so I think it is different at states versus at yeah, but I’m thinking if Gin texted me, I think people may not be able to show up, but you’re not willing to forfeit until you get there. You know, it’s still You’re still a jerk.

Erin: 19:35
Yeah.

Carolyn: 19:35
You’re still a jerk.

Erin: 19:36
You’re still a jerk.

Gin: 19:38
I guess yes. Except I guess the only argument is like, let’s say that like it was a match that you know, uh like that you were pulling your somebody was like really bending over backwards, missing a kid’s super important doctor’s appointment to be at this match because it really mattered to the team and they really and you were kind of like, all right, we trust that I trust that Carolyn’s being honest. She thinks she’s gonna find But I guess she wants to wait. So we’re gonna actually tell this superstar player, go on to your kid’s appointment. We’re gonna have this other player come just in case. Um but I guess there’s always the chance that it’s gamesmanship. I don’t know. I don’t know the right answers. I know. It’s hard. It’s like being nice can sort of bite you.

Erin: 20:16
It does backfire. Yes. Like Carolyn said, yeah. I mean, I’ve you know, I’ve reached out to clubs. Clubs have reached out to us and said, hey, we can’t, you know, play all three, but can we play one tomorrow or can we play one ahead of time? And we go, I mean, yeah, it’s just tennis, right? We always say it’s just tennis, we’re not getting paid. We use that word daily. And then when you ask that same team or that same club for a favor, nope. Absolutely not. Match time is match time. Exactly. That is very true.

Carolyn: 20:54
And he said yes, that that would be a waste of his time. But let us know if you’ve had any interesting forfeiting situations or any advice for forfeiting courts. You can message us on our socials or our website, which is secondserv podcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.

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