In this episode of Second Serve, Carolyn and Erin talk with McKenzie and Rachel about winning doubles strategies, including the power of using signals, making mid-match adjustments, and maintaining a fun, positive mindset—even during tight matches.

Here’s a Complete Transcript of our Conversation:

Carolyn: 0:06

Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin and we are excited to have Mckenzie and Rachel on the podcast to discuss double strategy. We had Gigi Fernandez on the podcast previously, who is a 17-time Grand Slam champion, and she also coaches rec players and she said even rec players should have a strategy and be running plays and doing plan switches, but I’ve not seen very many people do this when playing until I played Rachel and McKenzie. McKenzie is a 3-5 and Rachel is a 4-0. And they beat me at the 4-0 level, so using signals and strategy worked for them, so I asked if they would come on the podcast to discuss it. So first, can you guys tell us a little bit about your tennis background? McKenzie, can you start?McKenzie: 0:53

Yes, absolutely. I started playing in my late 30s, really mid 30s, taking a few lessons and just started to fall immediately in love with the game. And then, before I was really able to sink my teeth in, I got married and had children and took a little break and then returned to the court, I would say like a little before everything shut down for the pandemic and then, after another year of playing, joined a USTA team and about a year after that started off playing with Rachel. That’s how we met. Even though we went to high school together and had crossed paths a little bit, we really didn’t become friends until tennis brought us together and now we play together all the time.Carolyn: 1:38

How about you, rachel? How did you start?Rachel: 1:39

Kind of the same thing I had my four kids and it was right after COVID needed to do something outside with my body and loved tennis right away. And um, ken’s and I actually got on a team together, kind of by accident, right, and we were in three, five and we were both playing singles oddly enough, a lot of singles and um, we kind of fell into playing doubles together and immediately both realized that we were a little bit nuts for strategy and studying the game and and also just love to have fun on the court.McKenzie: 2:17

I mean, carolyn, I know, when we played you. That was such a wonderful match and we just you know, we just try to have fun, like, yes, we do strategy, but we really just, most of the time, try to circle back to enjoying being out there together and learning and just trying to get better every day.Erin: 2:34

Absolutely so. Can you give our listeners a few pieces of doubles advice? We have had a lot of teaching pros tell us what we should do, but really, you know, our listeners are two fives to like four O’s and oftentimes we hear from our listeners that they get better not advice like. But you’re on the court, you’re in the trenches, so give us your advice. Rachel, do you want to start with that question?Rachel: 2:58

Sure, I mean, I think the biggest thing that elevated our game was the use of signals during our service.Erin: 3:07

A hundred percent.McKenzie: 3:08

Not only the server calling the location where she’s going to try to place the serve, but the server’s partner up at the net, then responding with what they want to do, whether they want to poach, whether they want to do a fake or stay. Just knowing in your mind, before that ball is even hit, what the plan is. It gives you confidence. Now the big thing where we’ve kind of changed is being able to execute on that serve.McKenzie: 3:34

Yeah. So it’s important to remember still track the ball right, like if you say wide and it’s up the tee, you got to be ready to poach that ball. If you say wide and it’s up the tee, you got to be ready to poach that ball. I also think that it helps us just to focus, Like the strategy, yes, especially when the server’s partner’s up there and you can see where the returner has lined up, like maybe they’re really crowding the tee. So we decide then okay, do we want to kind of jam it at them or do you going to go wide? So sometimes I’ll call it from the front if Rachel’s serving or vice versa. But then also it just makes us check back in like focus the point starting. And that’s, I would say when we don’t play well, it’s because of focus.McKenzie: 4:15

So the strategy really for us is just keep us in the point, keep our head in the game and make sure we’re communicating, cause one of our biggest things when we stop is stop communicating, is that that’s when things fall apart for us. So the more we’re talking to each other on the court, the better, and even when we’re in a tight match and we’ve called the serve, it goes where it’s supposed to go, the return. Your partner poaches that ball, they get a good look and they hit it in the net. So you miss. Your coach Ken’s will turn to me or I’ll turn to her and go two out of three things are right there. We did. Two out of three things, right yeah? So we’re always looking towards the next point, towards the next match, and staying positive with each other, because we all know you’re going to miss a volley or you’re going to fake too early and they’re going to burn you down the line, right yeah.McKenzie: 5:08

So sometimes it doesn’t work out but I think just having that plan in your mind and staying positive with your partner, it’s a game changer. And we’ve lost enough matches. Where we go, we don’t want to lose that way, like we don’t want to lose because we backed off of our, our plan, like, and she was right, right, one of our pros has said play to the next match. So we just really try to keep building, keep playing, keep trying things, and we do, we’ll go. Okay, three out of four things went right there. We got the ball we wanted, just missed that last shot. And instead of focusing on the miss, it’s like look what we did well here. And another thing that we do.McKenzie: 5:40

This is one thing we’ve implemented the most recently, which is lose two points, change something up. If you lose two in a row, switch something up and even if you know it can be, go to back right. Okay, we lost two points in a row. Now we’re serving love 30. We’re going to go to back right, give them a new look. And at this level, I find the returner will try to drop it short. We already prepare. Okay, who’s going to go if they drop it short? Which one of us is going for that? So we know that too. We prepare ourselves for that situation, and usually it goes right in the neck. And who’s going to call yeah and who’s going to take it?Erin: 6:17

But you’ve, but you’ve made a plan, we’ve got a plan, it also just, it also just makes people think more about where they’re going to put the ball.McKenzie: 6:24

If they’ve kind of got a rhythm, it breaks that rhythm and creates a little chaos for them and they’re thinking a little harder and usually it draws an error. I mean, I would say half the time 50% of those we win just by drawing an error from them.Erin: 6:37

The other thing that I’ve noticed at our level is that just having a plan and having your opponents know that you have a plan, and even if you fake a signal and you just go, uh-huh, yep, okay, you know something, they’re like, oh man, these people have their act together and that throws people off because, you’re right, a lot of people at our levels do not, even, not that they don’t have a strategy. It might be like, oh, hit to someone’s backhand or whatever, but it’s more like those signals, like you guys have talked about, that are super important and, honestly, like I’m sure, if you told a two, five, like you have to, you know, decide where you’re going to serve the ball, because we’re just happy to get the ball in the box at that point. But but you could, you know, maybe even just make a planned poach or planned stay or just pretend like you’re making a plan.Carolyn: 7:19

Yeah.Erin: 7:19

Sometimes, even when people get together on the baseline and talk, I always go I wonder what they’re talking about. Are they talking about where they’re having lunch after? Or are they saying, like, erin’s forehand is clearly better than her backhand, so I’m going to serve to her backhand, like I’m just wondering? So then that makes me not focus, wondering what they’re talking about.McKenzie: 7:37

A hundred percent. Yeah, We’ve noticed that as well and you know it’s interesting. You just talked about that. Ken Ken’s and I played the Raleigh Rocket Club member guest this weekend and they were one set, no ad, so a short set, and what we tried to do was identify weaknesses early, early on, right away. Like okay, they are running around their backhand in the warmup, you know whoever you’re warming up with, they haven’t hit a single backhand. Or she’s got a short slice forehand. Let’s jam her up the middle, you know, or we’re going to go Australian. We went Australian when she had that short slice return, so we played Australian.Carolyn: 8:17

You guys did Australian.McKenzie: 8:19

Yes, we actually do that a lot, and one thing we’ve done with that is to do it on the big points. That’s where we’ve progressed from last year. We would do Australian last year, but we would do it when we were up like 40, 15.McKenzie: 8:30

Yes, and now, like we played a match on Tuesday and it was a pretty tight match and it was like I think you were serving 34. I was serving 30, 40. And I was like let’s just, let’s do Australian, and we did, and we won that point and that was our match point, and that was it yeah.Erin: 8:47

So it was like now we do it on the bigger points, Do it on the big points.McKenzie: 8:51

And that’s something that Jane Foreman said. We did a clinic with Jane Foreman, who I don’t know if you guys follow her, but anyway, yeah, she’s awesome and we’ve worked with her.Erin: 9:13

She’s the one, carolyn, yeah, and she’s always talking to, and I’m sure a lot of people listening will know who she is. But she’s in Florida, right? I’m assuming you’ve been to Florida, miami, yeah, and she um will film, you know, her doubles clinic or whatever, and she’ll be talking to them through the point and then you can see her hand, like she talks with one hand and it has a glove on. She’ll tell you what you did well, or what you did really. She’s very brutally honest too. No, she never says what you do well.McKenzie: 9:30

No, she never says what you do well, oh, she only tells you we were like we want Jane just to yell at us, like I want her just to yell at me and tell me everything I’m doing wrong.Erin: 9:39

That’s so funny. That’s awesome you guys did. I didn’t know yeah she’s incredible. Let me ask you a question too. So Carolyn and I played a couple years ago, and this one point will always stand out in my mind we were at your home club and we were playing in the abilities tennis Tournament.Erin: 9:57

Tournament thank you sorry. And we were doing signals and I think I’m sure I was the server. I was behind Carolyn, she was at the net and I was supposed to serve it somewhere maybe wide, and I was supposed to serve it somewhere maybe wide and I didn’t but, and we had our plan. Do you even remember this? We had our plan and my serve was so completely not where it was supposed to be. And so I want to ask you guys this question Do you just, if the serve doesn’t go where it’s supposed to, do you change your plan to the moment? Or do you just go for it? Cause I will tell you, carolyn just goes for it. She had to poach, do you remember it?Carolyn: 10:28

now she’s laughing.Erin: 10:29

I know what you’re talking about yeah, she’s laughing because it was so significantly like I would have thought nobody would poach the ball. But she was like I said I had a plan, I’m going for the plan. Someone actually saw it happen and they were like, how did she still go for that ball? And I was like, cause, carolyn, we had a plan in mind and it happened and she got and actually you won us the point, believe it or not.Carolyn: 10:50

But so what happens? What?Erin: 10:52

happens with you guys. If you make a plan for a serve or a poach or a something and something goes wrong, do you then know? Because you guys just play together so much you can sort of read each other’s mind and you know. Like you said, rachel let you know Paul’s like.Carolyn: 11:05

Thanks to McKenzie and Rachel for coming on the podcast. Do you change it in the moment? Or does go mean go, because to me go means go, or do you do the Carolyn method and also the craziest situation that’s ever happened to?McKenzie: 11:16

them. Yes, carolyn’s correct. You are supposed to stick with it regardless, and we do not. We abort.Erin: 11:21

Thanks so much for listening.Carolyn: 11:22

I abort too too.McKenzie: 11:27

That’s why I wanted to ask and we know that we’re going to do that, so we can call that all day and then that ball is like way cross court.Erin: 11:31

I am not.McKenzie: 11:31

I am five one Like I’m not going after that ball, and so we, but we know that we’re not going to stick with it. Yeah. Oh yeah, we know, and we’ve had pros tell us that you guys aren’t doing this right, like I said, okay, you’re poaching and you stayed.Erin: 11:47

And that’s not what you’re supposed to do. And we say, oh, you’re winning. So Carolyn is correct.Carolyn: 11:51

Carolyn’s correct. You go, Carolyn. But, Carolyn’s not winning, just so you know. Carolyn’s not winning, they are winning. Well, you won that point, you won that point.Erin: 11:59

She did, and she’s only saying that because she’s been out of tennis for two years. But she’s coming back, coming back strong. That’s right, yes.McKenzie: 12:05

Well, I do want to say like sometimes you can plan that poach on the side that you prefer. So like for me, my backhand volley, if we do a planned poach, yeah, that’s so effective. Yes, I’m like I’m going to plan on this side. You’re serving ad, I’m over here on dues, I’m going to go, and vice versa. You know, ken’s is so quick, her forehand volley is incredible. Like it’s more likely we’re going to do it on that side.McKenzie: 12:31

Yeah, like you might go, for you might continue to stick with the plan more on that side Cause and that backhand volley that you do. I mean it’s so unexpected and it’s so good. Yeah, I think too, like great, oh, thank you, you guys are so kind. But for me it’s easier to take my backhand volley at the net where it’s supposed to go, right, you’re supposed to go net player to net player. Don’t ever take that coach back to that baseline player and give them all the time in the world to then pass you down the line or send it where they or they want to send it. For whatever reason, my forehand volley, I feel like, goes back to the baseline Every time, every time. So like knowing your own limitations, I think are important.McKenzie: 13:18

And having your partner know your limitations 100% For sure, I mean there’s so many points, I think we do win just knowing what the other person’s going to do. Whether it’s right or wrong, I think we know what they’re going to do and it is very surprising when we, you know, let a ball come between us down the middle, like that’s very rare or you know, get burned in a place because we’re out of position, just because we’re, we are so used, and that’s just one thing.McKenzie: 13:40

I also think at the club level, at our, our low level of tennis, that not having consistent partners like you, carolyn, have played with someone different all season and it’s just, it’s just not a great strategy. I mean, if it’s possible at all to have two partners or three partners, you know, at the most in a season at least, I think that that’s just so huge.Erin: 13:59

Yeah, I try to do that as a captain, if I, you know. We kind of pull people and say like who do you feel like you play well with, who do you not play well with? And then we try our hardest to. But you know it’s we’re not professional players where this is our whole life, Like everyone’s got whatever their kids to pick up, or you know a doctor.Carolyn: 14:17

Yeah, it was my fault, I didn’t have the same partner each time because of my scheduling.McKenzie: 14:21

But no, yeah, I mean ideally is all I’m saying, like it does make a difference, it’s all I mean. But we’re moms that play tennis, you know, we’re not like obviously we just it’s secondary to our real life. I think the other problem is, like some people are like I can’t play with her. She’s my friend, I don’t want to disappoint her. Yes, and that makes a big difference, you know, and Ken’s and I have, I just know big difference, you know, and Ken’s and I have. I just know, even if I miss that four hand volley four times in a row, I would say keep going.McKenzie: 14:50

I look back and go for it every time. Thank you, we’ll see you next time.

SwingVision Ambassadors

Use our referral link to get a FREE Swing Stick ($100 value) with your first year of SwingVision Pro. The bundles are only $159.99 (previously $179.99). This is a limited time offer that you won’t want to miss!

We are excited to team up with Michelle from Tennis Warehouse and her “Talk Tennis” podcast to bring you a “TW Tip of the Week!” Use the code SECONDSERVE to get $20 off clearance apparel when you spend $100 or more.