For more information on all things Cardio Tennis and National Hit to be Fit Weekend visit: http://Linktr.ee/cardiotennis

Register to host a Hit to be Fit event at: www.cardiotennisinstructor.com 

Here are links to our past episodes with Michele:

Ep. 144: Cardio Tennis – the Right Way to Play Triples

Ep. 145: Cardio Tennis Can Make You The Biggest Loser Too!

Here’s a complete transcript of our conversation with Michele Krause:

Carolyn 0:07

Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin and we are excited to have Michele Krause back on the podcast. We had her, what was it, Erin? 2022. I think it was 2022 to discuss cardio tennis. So we are thrilled to have you back on. Thanks for coming back on, Michelle. So so excited to be back with you gals and to discuss our topic for today. Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about the topic, which is National Hit to Be Fit Weekend? I would love to.

Red Ball Triples And Inclusivity

Michele 0:36

So National Hit to Be Fit weekend is May 15th through the 17th. Now, this will be the third year that we’re doing National Hit to Be Fit. It is in conjunction with National Tennis Month. So I’m not sure if everybody knows that National Tennis Month exists, but it does, and it has existed for a very long time. And we’ve done a much better job, and I would say the last three to four years of embracing that and doing the things that we should be doing around that month. So Hit to Be Fit was a concept that I came up with because I love big events and I like lots of people and music and it should be a party on the court. So I’m like, let’s do uh let’s do National Hit to Be Fit Day. And in of course, my um thinking very big blonde brain. Uh it started as, okay, we’re gonna do this big event at Lake Nona at the US T national campus, you know, and we’re gonna have, you know, 20 courts of, you know, cardio tennis going on. And then I thought to myself, well, yeah, we can do that, but it should be bigger than that. Like ever like everybody in Florida should be doing that. Okay. And then I thought, no, everybody across the country should be doing that. And uh then I’m like, okay, we’re gonna have 300 locations across the country all doing the same thing on the same day. All right, so there was my vision. And we’ve had quite a bit of success um these last two years. And so the mission of National Hit to Be Fit Weekend is that one, we are celebrating tennis and all its health and wellness benefits. And we are also trying to unite the tennis industry on one day more or less. So the first two years it was Hit to Be Fit Day. And this year for our event, we looked usually at Lake Nona, we do it on a Saturday or a Sunday morning. And for this year, we felt we wanted to do it on a Friday night. So we will be under the lights. And because of that, um, knowing knowing our facilities across the country, not all of them would be able to do something on a Friday, Friday night on a big scale. So we made the decision that would be National Hit to Be Fit weekend as opposed to National Hit to Be Fit Day. Okay, so so a facility, you can be a country club, you can be a commercial facility, you could be a public park, you can be a CTA. You can schedule your event anytime Friday, Saturday, Sunday over that weekend. Love it. All right, I just talked a lot. Do you have any last thoughts on that?Carolyn 3:34

I I had the question. So, what are people doing during the okay? Yeah, so that’s great, Michelle. Hit to be fit. What does that mean?Erin 3:42

What does it mean? What does it mean? All right, so I heard uh Friday night party as well.Michele 3:47

Yeah, and we’re and we’re I’m gonna talk more about the Friday night party too, okay? So obviously I manage cardio tennis, and we know that cardio tennis is um a great way to get new tennis participants into our sport. Um, we also have adult red ball, okay, which is also one of the easiest entry points to get people into our sport. And so I’m about growing the game. Um, I am about all ability levels and fitness levels playing together and being inclusive. So the event itself is a little bit of adult red ball. And then our favorite game in the world, cardio tennis triples. Yes. Yeah. So Carol and I love triples, right? We do now. Yeah.Carolyn 4:36

Now that you now that you know the right way to play, right? Yeah, because I had played previously with a regular ball, and Michelle told us that was wrong. That’s wrong. Yeah. Because people were just getting nailed left and right. And then with the orange ball, it’s perfect.Michele 4:49

It’s perfect, yeah. So when you take the context of the red and the orange ball and um cardio tennis programming, again, we’re going to hit to be fit. And whether you’re a new player to the sport or you’re an experienced higher level athlete, everybody is gonna play with and against each other in this event format.Erin 5:14

So that is my favorite ball, is the red ball, actually. I love the red ball. But yeah, that ball, we actually, Carolyn and I last summer um did a triples event um together. It was so hot, but it was super fun. And there were all different levels, like you said. And I actually learned from you when we had you on in 2022, which will link your other old episodes back, you know, after um in our show notes, um, so people can go back and listen to that. But I think I learned then that you can mix all different levels. And we certainly had that in our event. And that’s what makes it fun, is it kind of doesn’t matter if you’re just beginning or you’re advanced, because that ball, I think you said it kind of levels the playing field for people. So I love that. Anyone like any of our listeners should be asking their friends to just come out, even if you usually get into tennis as an adult by having a friend just say, Come out and hit, just try it. We’ve had so many people that are now high-level tennis players start in their 40s and 50s just because their friend said, just come out and hit with me, just try it, give it a try. It’s fun, whatever. Um, and this is a perfect event for people to get started and ask their friends to come to an event like this because even if they don’t think they can hit a tennis ball, they’ll be able to. And it sounds like it’s gonna be a party.

How To Run The Party Format

Michele 6:26

So yeah, a party. Again, it’s it’s a it’s a red and orange ball event. Uh, music should be blaring. You want big numbers, okay? So if you if one is hosting this event, you really want to do this on a minimum of three courts with a minimum of 18 athletes. Okay, when you get down to two courts, it’s just not the same vibe, the same energy. Um, you can’t do the rotations as well. We have marketing collateral pieces for our facilities to use, sizzle video flyers, social media graphics to promote their event. We even have a short online course that’s everything’s free for the organizers to watch the the online so they learn how to actually run the vet the event. We don’t we don’t want people making up something. Okay, like we’re pretty, this is like this is this is what hit to be fit is. And it it is this because it is proven and we know it works, and you don’t need a coach for every court. There’s there is zero ball feeding in this event. Not one ball is fed. It is all partner interaction, and or in triples, the athlete is putting the ball into play. Okay, so you don’t need a lot of staff. You want to have great, you know, nightclub music going on. You could do fun things like if you want to do shirts for your participants, we’ll give you our hit to be fit logo. You can add food and beverage to it, etc. So, and you want to run the event um in the 90 to 20, excuse me, 90 minutes to two hours. Okay, it should not be more than two hours. 90 minutes is actually the perfect amount. Our Lake Nona event, we’re we’re pretty fancy with this one. So we have an amazing audio company and they set up an incredible sound system throughout the 20 courts. Okay, so the music is just incredible. And then we have a partner called Fit Radio. They are the leader in the group fitness music space from a uh in an app standpoint. And last year they create they curated two unique mixes for our event. So anybody that’s doing this event across the country will also have access to that music. Okay, so not only are we doing the same general activity, but hopefully we’re all listening to that party uh techno nightclub music. At Lake Nona, the Lake Nona Mascot Rally will be making an appearance. Um, there is a mascot. And then there will also be the debut of the new campus cocktail. Okay, which I have to keep under wraps because it’s still secret. Oh, it’s a secret.Carolyn 9:26

It’s a secret cocktail.Erin 9:27

I love that we have signature cocktails for all the events now.

How To Host And Register

Michele 9:31

It’s very signature cocktail. Yes. So anybody that’s listening around the country, you are very welcome to join us at Lake Nona. Okay. I mean, you don’t have to live in you know, Orlando, Lake Nona. Please, you know, make the trip. I think it’ll be worth it. Plus, you can see the UST National Campus. Um, registration for that should be live in a couple weeks. But in the meantime, um, anybody can go to uh LinkTree backslash cardio tennis to find all the information.Carolyn 10:01

Okay, so if we wanted to take do this here in North Carolina where we’re located, do we ask our CTA? Do we ask our pro? How do we do this if we want to be a part of this event? Exactly.Michele 10:13

And I’m hoping that your listeners um are a little excited about this and think, oh yeah, I would like to, I would like to do this here. So please, yes, speak to your um your racket staff, your tennis staff. Tell them that you heard about this. Uh you know, you as a member client would like to be involved. And then all they need to do is go to cardiotenisinstructor.com and they click on a link and they’re registering their site. So I need sites to register, right? Because the that’s the only way I know who’s participating. And my goal for this year is 300 locations across the country. All right. So we’re gonna help you get that. Thank you.Erin 10:54

Because Carol and I are both gonna do one at our club. Yes, we got two more already, right? We’re gonna force, yeah, we’re gonna force our pros. Yep. Um, so do you need, like, for instance, we at my club, we do uh our pros run like Friday night mixers. Yep. At least once a month, sometimes twice a month. So do they just need to say, like, I’m gonna have four courts and X amount of participants? They don’t have to actually register people’s names. No. Good.Michele 11:19

Correct. So all they’re doing when they register is they’re putting in their their name and their club and their email, and it’s just saying we’re participating as a host. Okay. And then when they do that, they get access to all the resources. Okay. So the marketing pieces, the education, they’ll get updates on things that are happening on that they would want to know about as we lead up to the big event.Erin 11:42

Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna, I’m gonna force this on my club this week. Because it’s a party. It sounds like so much fun.Michele 11:51

So if you know, even if you talk, if um, if you’re a listener and you talk to your tennis coach and they don’t want to do it in May, I would, or they can’t for because of scheduling purposes, ask them to do it another time. So it doesn’t have to be that particular weekend, although it would help my numbers.

Players Can Run It Too

Erin 12:08

Right. We have a goal. We have a goal. I have a question. This might sound strange, but could I run? I’m not a coach. I’m a four-o mediocre, four-o player, but like there’s a um, we have some pretty social people at our club that sometimes they just go, we’re gonna get together again, you know, Friday night, Saturday night, whatever. I have four courts booked, who who can be out there? But again, like you said, that becomes a the numbers have to be even or someone’s sitting out, or um, and when you first said, I’m gonna go back to what you said several minutes ago about it being a 90 minute to a two hour event, I was thinking, that doesn’t sound long enough. But when you’re doing cardio tennis and hit to be fit, like Carol and I learned this summer, and it was scorching hot when we did it. Yep, you’re like people are like, I’ll sit out, yeah, you know. Um, but could I run it as like just a social, you know, if I had like however many. I mean, I could easily get 20 to 25 people on courts on a Friday night if I could, you know, if I have enough courts to book at my club. Is that something that I could just do if I didn’t have someone? Absolutely. Oh good. Oh, good, okay.Michele 13:07

In my world, I can’t rely on tennis staff all the time because they’re very busy, understandably so. So, yes, um, people like yourselves who love tennis, who have some good tennis knowledge, we we encourage you, actually strongly encourage you to run this type of an event. And that’s why I was so focused on making sure there was education so that as a you know, non-tennis teaching person, that you could review that education and you would know exactly what to do. Okay, giving you the tools, the agendas right there. There’s an agenda, it’s broken down in time hacks. It’s very self-explanatory. So again, listen, listeners out there, if you’re, you know, whatever level you are, if you like to organize things, if you have energy, if you like bringing groups of people together, you do not have to rely on tennis staff to make this happen.Erin 14:13

That’s really good to know. Because there are, I mean, there’s also a lot of groups, you know, just outside USTA that are just social people that get together and play. So this would be something great for them to run. And you could run it at your club. I know. Even if you can’t get your your pro involved.Carolyn 14:27

Yeah, and even I have neighbors that don’t play tennis, but they could play this.Erin 14:32

Yes.Carolyn 14:32

So, you know, or this could be a good leadway into it. It’s a good segue. Is that it doesn’t matter if you just starting or you’re a 4-0, everybody can play together. Right, which is really nice.Michele 14:43

And I’m here to support anybody, all right. So, again, listeners, if this is something that’s interesting you to you and you go to cardio tennis instructor.com and you register, um, I’m I’m very available and accessible be via email and text, and I would be more than happy to help anybody walk them through this.

Carolyn 15:06

Thanks to Michelle for coming on the podcast. We’ve included a link where you can find more information on all things cardio tennis and national hit to be fit weekend. We have one more episode with Michelle where we discuss why everyone should be using a red, orange, or green ball, whether you are a two-five or Roger Federer. So we hope you check that out. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the courts soon. Thanks to Michelle for coming on the podcast. We’ve included links in our show notes where you can learn more about National Hit to Be Fit weekend, or you can register to host a hit to be fit event. Also, we discuss why everyone should be using the red ball, the orange ball, or the green ball, whether you are a 2 5 beginner or Roger Federer. So we hope you check that out. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the courts soon.

The post Ep. 316: National Hit to be Fit Weekend appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Tennis, and especially adult recreational tennis, is a little strange with all the etiquette, protocols, and manners involved in a match. Also, what one person considers bad manners another may not. In this episode, Erin discusses situations she has had with opponents who she believes did not have the best tennis manners.  Carolyn mostly agrees, but we learned that bad manners can be very subjective!

Here’s a complete transcript of our conversation about Tennis Manners:

Carolyn 0:08

Hi everyone, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin. And Aaron actually came up with this topic uh of tennis manners. Um Erin, do you want to talk a little bit about a situation you had recently? And um then we started laughing and talking about different strange or I guess interesting things that happened on the tennis court because adult tennis is a little, or just tennis in general, I guess, is a little strange at all the protocols and the etiquette and the manners involved. So can you talk a little bit about it?SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, um, I was thinking about that column called Miss Manners that was probably written year, I mean decades ago. But anyway, so I was thinking of like, you know, there’s there’s like these a lot of unwritten rules. And our friend Angela actually asked us some of those unwritten rules at one point, right? About like who does this and who does that? So one of the things that happened um to me recently was I was playing a singles match at our club. And um, well, the first thing that happened was I was playing the captain of the team that we were facing, and it was um singles court. So we had three singles courts, and um she came onto the court where we were warming up right at match time. So, Tim, in my mind, it’s like we have to exchange lineups. You have your five to 15 minutes to warm up, and then you’re supposed to start within 15 minutes of actual match time, right? Right. So she was just walking on. So I approached her and I said, Hi, I’m Aaron, you know, you’re the captain, let’s exchange lineup. And she did not look at me, did not, I mean, she did. She was, I think she was on the phone or something, but I was like, I just got this vibe that she wasn’t, didn’t want to, you know, didn’t want to talk to me. I kind of found out later, I think she was trying to figure out about her three teammates who was gonna play on singles one, singles two, singles three, but okay. Anyway, it didn’t matter. It was just a little bit, it was just a little bit odd, you know, and you know, maybe that’s a manners thing, and everybody thinks, you know, everybody has different manners. So, you know, that was just uh her. But once we started, we started our warm-up, she hit the ball into the net a few times. And so she asked me if the uh net had been measured recently, and I didn’t know the answer to it. But our pro was there, and I said, Oh, let me get our pro to go ahead and do that because I don’t have a measuring tape in my bag. I couldn’t even tell you what the net is supposed to be at. I think it’s exactly, but I could be wrong. Um, so before I even had time to like kind of glance around and look for our pro, she had gone to her bag, grabbed a measuring tape, and started measuring it. But the problem was that she’s she moved it, like she she pulled the strap right away and like was gonna correct it, but it had it was actually correct in the first place. So then we had to take some time to like go through and pull the strap down and make sure it was set right and all. So to me, that was, and I don’t want to use the word rude, but manners-wise, we I was the home team, I was the home captain, even. I wasn’t just like a player out there not knowing what to do. I was the captain. She asked me a question, didn’t let me even fix it, and she went ahead and just boom started doing it, and then kind of messed up the whole situation. And it took like five or 10 minutes to kind of get it set. So I just thought that was um a little odd. Um yes, yes. So I don’t know. Did were you there that day? Did you see that? You didn’t see that happen.Carolyn 3:27

I didn’t see that happen. I can’t remember anyway. I didn’t saw part of the message. I didn’t know that. Um, yeah, but I always knew when someone’s measuring the nets that I my experience is it’s normally pretty intense after that. Um, or they’re really into it. You know enough to measure it and to have something to measure it, then you’re not messing around.SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, I don’t know. Um, I don’t even know what the right height is. I should. And there’s actually like measuring devices specifically for tennis. Yes. Nets, but maybe I should get one as the captain. But um, and then the other um thing that happened, and again, this isn’t a manners thing, it’s just like uh everyone’s personality is so different. But um, I had this woman show up and to a singles match and had her own chair. Again, like we had benches, we have, you know, and I know it’s a little odd maybe to sit next to your opponent, but you can sit on a bench and sip your water and not say anything if you don’t want to talk. Um, but she like put a chair on like a completely, I would say like eight feet away from me. Yes, which is fine. Because I know that’s you like to not talk to people. So I totally understood her, but it does feel odd and awkward in an adult rec tennis match. I don’t think that probably happens that often. Maybe it happens more at states where it’s more intense or something, but this was like a casual summer league where I just thought I wasn’t gonna chit chat with her because I clearly knew I could read the room. Like her personality was like, don’t chit chat with me. But it was just funny to have like, and you did show up later and you were like, what’s with the chair like 20 feet away?Carolyn 5:03

See, that’s really interesting, Erin, because I saw that match also where someone was had a chair and put it really far away from everyone else. And in my mind, I thought that’s really smart. And then I started doing it for my single smart. Well, well, because of COVID, part of it was because of COVID, but also kind of just to be away from everyone else. Um, right, is it’s better for me. So, but I think that’s interesting how you know you took it. It’s strange to see at like for a fun match to see someone take a chair and put it away from everyone. But mine specifically, I’m like, oh, that’s really smart, especially with COVID to put all your stuff away from everyone. That I agree with. The COVID thing I absolutely agree with.SPEAKER_00 5:46

And maybe that was it. It definitely could have been that.Carolyn 5:48

Oh, I had one for you. I remember this, and I don’t know what to do in this situation. Who changes the scoreboard? I always find it very awkward. Like it’s like we both walk up, then there’s like we stare at each other, then I do it, and then I don’t know if they don’t like that that I’m doing it.SPEAKER_00 6:04

Is it that people like to change it every single time? Like, you know, even on an even like not even on a changeover, and especially in, and I don’t disagree with this, and frankly, I don’t care. If someone wants to change it every time and that’s their quirk, I have no problem with that. You know, change the scoreboard every time. Um, but um, especially in match tie breaks, I’m actually not against that, except it does uh sometimes mess with the flow. If you’re changing it every single time, every single point, because at least in a game, you know, you could go four points or maybe it’s eight points or twelve points, depending on how many deuces you go to. Then it doesn’t mess up the flow if you change it, you know, uh between games. But if you change it every single time, like during a set or a match tie break, that to me is um distracting because you’re doing it after every single point. But who does it is a very good question. Here’s my philosophy. Let’s hear it. I don’t personally care. I try, if I am the away opponent, if I’m at someone else’s courts, I certainly try to establish some sort of like who wants to do this, you know, like it’s your home courts, it’s you know, your it’s up to you, it’s your job. I don’t personally care if anybody does it at ours or not. And part of that is two things for me. Number one, I tend to focus on tennis and not not that I don’t focus on the score, but sometimes like there’s so much to think about that I will oftentimes either call the score wrong. Like sometimes, like if I’m up 40-30, I might say 30-40 and then go, oh no, sorry, sorry, 40-30, knowing the numbers are right, but I have them in the wrong order. So I might do that with a scoreboard too. So I personally don’t care if somebody else does the scoreboard and I just like check them, or if I do it every single time, I literally say to my opponents or my team or my partner, watch every time I change this, then I’m doing it correctly. Um, so and then here’s the other thing too. This is the weird part of my personality, and it comes down to superstition. If I’ve changed it and I’m winning, then I would prefer to keep changing it. If I’ve changed it and I’ve lost, like I might want to switch it up and have someone else touch it or do it, right?Carolyn 8:15

Yes, that so that’s really interesting because I play doubles with someone who um refuses to change the scoreboard or she doesn’t want to do it, she says that it’s bad luck. So she doesn’t want to change the scoreboard. I don’t care, or I’m fine changing it, but I just didn’t know. Like I I just think it’s kind of interesting that you know, some people don’t want to change it, some people do. Yeah, is there someone that should? And it’s always this awkward, did you change it? A lot of times as I notice we switch sides and then nobody’s changed it. And so I’m always like running up to change it because I don’t want to forget games. Um, but right. But you is it normally the home team that you let do it? And if they don’t, then you do it.SPEAKER_00 9:00

I think if we were talking of I would think if we’re talking about it in a manners situation, it’s probably best to defer to the home team to do it. Okay. Same with, oh, we should just talk about spinning the racket, right? Oh, yes. Anyone can do it, but I it’s almost always in my mind come down to the home team spins. Yes. It doesn’t have to be that way, but it’s you’re you are the host of the match. You know, even if you’re at a city, you don’t have to be at a country club or a, you know, or tennis club. Um, you know, if you’re city courts, you’re someone is always assigned the home team or the away team. So I typically let, and I will say to people, like, you’re the home team, why don’t you? I might initiate the spin, but I would say you’re the home team, you know, why don’t you spin? Some people don’t have like the bottom of the racket has like a weird symbol or they don’t want to spin the racket. Yes. Um, and so they might go like, oh, you know, who has the best racket to spin with? But I think in just like prompting the home team to at least start that process somehow, whether they want to have somebody else do it, or that that to me would be the the right thing to do.Carolyn 10:05

Yes, I agree with that. And then you’re the captain, so you enter scores a lot. Who enters the scores? Oh, that’s a good one.

Captain’s Responsibilities in Tennis Matches

SPEAKER_00 10:11

That’s a really good question. So the USTA says anybody can enter the scores. And I think that they say that because, yeah, I think they say that because they want scores entered quickly. I used to play on a team when I first started out where I had a captain, she was a great captain, but she would constantly forget after the match if we won to enter the scores. And so I would like obsessively watch for like a couple days to see if they had been entered. And there was a lot of times where I wanted to enter them because I knew, you know, I knew all three courts or five courts or whatever, I knew who played on what. And um, but I might have even been the co-captain, but I didn’t feel like it was my place to do it. But it really is anyone can do it. But typically, I think the unwritten, you know, rule, manners, whatever you want to call it, is the the winning team is supposed to enter. Now, I do think it comes down to like now I’ve captained for so long. I feel like if even if I was the losing captain, I have all the scores and know who’s played on what courts, I would probably just enter them. Um, but it it’s supposed, I mean, manners-wise, um, protocol, whatever you want to call it, it should be the winning team. But if they don’t enter it for a while, really anybody can do it. Right. Two other things that come to mind, and I know we’ve done previous episodes on them, but um as a captain, the courtesy slash nice mismanners thing to do as the um host, whether again, if you’re at a city court, you could be the home or away captain, whatever, but it should fall under the person, the captain that is hosting the match as the home team should contact the other captain and just confirm. Just say, looks like weather’s good, you know, for tomorrow or next week or whenever you’re confirming it. You know, sometimes I’ll say, like, you know, don’t forget where we’re playing, there’s no water on the courts, or you know, the bathrooms are far away, or we have ice and water and towels, you know, whatever. Just kind of give them. Or if you know your court numbers, that’s a really nice thing to do ahead of time for the opposing team is just to say, here’s where we’re playing, here’s what it looks like, here’s what we, you know, here’s what’s going on. Um, so that’s a good manners thing to do. What was the other one that we just talked about? Oh, we also talked about before. Courts to play on.Carolyn 12:26

Mm-hmm.unknown 12:27

Yeah.SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yes.Carolyn 12:28

Like who plays on what court? Yes.SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah. So several, several years, many, many years ago, um, we were the home team and we had a club show up, and um, we only had a singles court. I mean, I’m sorry, we only had a hard court available for the singles match. And then we were waiting for other courts to open up for the doubles or something, but singles had to get started. So our captain, it was not me at the time, my captain said to the other team, we’re gonna put the singles one player on hard court one or whatever. Right. And the other team, the woman that was playing singles, almost outright refused because we have clay courts and hard courts at our club. And the fact is, it was bad manners for her to refuse because you can’t. You play where you are assigned to. You can obviously negotiate. I mean, maybe our captain didn’t even want to play there either. And maybe she could have said, hey, you know, we would rather wait and put singles on a clay court or whatever. But we did not have a choice at that time. And the rule, the the deal was that was the court that she and the other singles player were assigned to. She almost outright refused to play. It took about 15 minutes to convince her that that was where she was playing, or she was going to forfeit the match. And that’s again, that’s super awkward in adult rec tennis, but the the that’s the rule. Like the home team gets to choose where what court you’re playing, whatever match on. There’s certainly a lot of courtesy given. If certain people don’t like to play on hard courts, maybe they have bad knees, maybe they’re older, maybe you know, they have an injury, you know, whatever it is. But the the nice mismanners thing to do is to play where you are assigned.Carolyn 14:08

The right.SPEAKER_00 14:08

Right. That’s all I have to say.Carolyn 14:12

Thanks very much to Aaron for discussing this. We hope you’ll check out our website, which is secondservepodcast.com. You can listen to all of our episodes directly from the website by searching the topic you’re interested in. We also have information about ratings, rules, tennis gear, and more on our resources page. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the courts of the city.

The post Ep. 315: Tennis Manners appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

You can learn more about ratings on the USTA website: NTRP Ratings Questions & Answers

Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board of Directors. She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee and Regulation Subcommittee and previously served on the USTA Constitution & Rules Committee.

At the Southern sectional level, Jenifer most recently served as the chair of the USTA Southern Adult League Committee and was a member of that committee for five terms. She is also the long-time chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee. A former USTA Arkansas president, she continues to serve on the USTA Arkansas Board as a past president and as chair of the USTA Arkansas Adult League and League Grievance committees.

An attorney and resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas, Jenifer is involved in League tennis in Northwest Arkansas after serving as the areas’s local league coordinator for five years. She is also a 4.5 player!

Here’s a complete transcript of our conversation about USTA League Urband Legends:

Carolyn: 0:06

Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin and we have Jenifer Tucker back on the podcast to discuss urban legends. She did an episode for us previously on self rates and we had so many more questions that we thought we’d do another episode on urban legends. On urban legends, Jenifer is the vice president of the USTA Southern Board of Directors. She also serves on the USTA Adult League Committee. She was a former president of USTA Arkansas and she was a local league coordinator and a 4-5 player. Okay, let’s start with some rapid fire questions about urban legends. Erin, will you start us off?Erin: 0:41

Okay, here’s my first rapid fire question about an urban legend In certain parts of the country players are required to play straight up or order of strength. Is that true? That is false, elaborate. So the reason I’m asking this question is because we play in North Carolina. We have a lot of players that come from the Northeast and I’ve had players at our club say you know, our number one doubles has to be the, the, the strongest team, and then it goes from number one doubles down to two, three and singles are supposed to play strongest on one and strongest on two. In our area we flip courts all the time based on who we’re going to play. But some people have said I heard it’s a rule that you’re supposed to play in order of strength.Jenifer: 1:29

Yeah, I think in certain areas of the country you can certainly have traditions or you can certainly have groups of people who prefer doing it a certain way, but there cannot be any kind of rule in USTA League requiring any sort of order of strength lineup.Carolyn: 1:48

And we did a self-rate episode where we kind of discussed this, but I thought that was important to also include in our Urban Legends, which is you need three strikes as a self-rate or appeal to be de-cued. That’s actually true.Jenifer: 2:00

As a self-rated player, you have to have a sufficient number of strikes to be disqualified and that is when your dynamic rating, or the rating to 100th of a point, hits a certain threshold three different times. As a self-rated player, grievance, but that would be specifically limited to whether you have inappropriately not disclosed some of your tennis experience in your self-rate questionnaire.Carolyn: 2:31

Can you tell us real quick what is a?Jenifer: 2:32

strike. So dynamic ratings are hundredth to the hundredth of a point. So for example, 3.01 to 3.5. Every time you play another player, the computer is going to have an expected outcome of that match. So for example, if a 3.01, a 3.5 player and a 3.49, a 3.5 player play each other, the expected outcome is 6-0, 6-0. For every game that differs, you may very well, for example, have the 3.49 player winning 6-1, 6-1, in which case that player’s dynamic rating would actually go down. The 3.01 player would actually go up. So those are the general parameters. When a self-rated player generates a certain threshold above their assigned rating, they will get a strike. So three strikes means you’re disqualified at that level.Carolyn: 3:41

Okay, that’s great. I have another self-rate question as far as an urban legend and I’ve always kind of noticed this myself, but I wanted to hear what you have to say and that is you can’t get DQ’d at the actual state championship, sectionals or nationals. Like I’ve seen a lot of people, right Erin, get DQ’d after the state championship, or they go to sectionals and they beat all these people, but like, let’s say, you get your third strike at your very first match at the sectionals, do you get DQ’d at that point or at the end of the tournament?Jenifer: 4:15

In Southern section you would get disqualified at the conclusion of the championship and those matches would stand. But the national regs allow the sections to determine if they would prefer to run those calculations while in the championship.Erin: 4:31

It would have helped me if people could get disqualified during the tournament, because that happened to us, to Carolyn and I on our 3-5 team, right, yes, yes, she got DQ’d afterwards, but it would have been great if she got DQ’d before the end of the state championship before she beat us.Jenifer: 4:48

I would say that you should submit a regulation change proposal, but probably not best justification to use your personal experience.Erin: 4:58

Oh, jennifer’s going to love this question. This is an urban legend about coaching. This is an urban legend about coaching. So some people think in adult rec tennis that coaching is allowed in certain USTA matches for our adult rec players. Now I would argue that I would like to see that happen at some point. But talk about the urban legend. Is there any coaching in USTA adult rec matches?Jenifer: 5:22

No coaching is allowed in USTA league matches and I’m not really sure what you could benefit from that, Erin.Erin: 5:30

Well, I’ve said it before so much, I’ve said it before Probably much, I’ve said it before Probably not a lot, but it would make it interesting and I see all the reasons not to do it, but not to bring up another Carolyn singles loss in the past.Erin: 5:48

But we were at States and she was playing a very tall woman and she was slicing and won the first set 6-0, right, yes, 6-0. 6-0. And then the woman changed her entire game and she started coming to the net and Carolyn decided she was going to change her game because that woman, you know, had a different strategy and Carolyn stopped her slicing and she started trying to lob her and the woman was like six feet tall. It didn’t work, and so I wanted so badly to tell Carolyn to go back to what was working, but I couldn’t and I’m not a cheater and I really wanted to follow her into the bathroom between sets and tell her what to do, but I don’t know that it would have helped. But that’s why I oftentimes think I wish someone could tell me something about the player that I’m playing that might help me.Carolyn: 6:33

Yeah, I’m dying out here, exactly.Jenifer: 6:35

Well, the first that I’m playing, that might help me. Yeah, I’m dying out here, exactly. Well, the first thing I was going to say is perhaps Carolyn did figure that out, and she just didn’t execute. Perhaps that could be the case. The other is what’s so great about tennis is you’re out there by yourself problem solving, and I think that’s that’s one of the rationales that no coaching is allowed. And it’s again adult league tennis.Carolyn: 6:53

So it’s very important allowed and it’s again adult league tennis.Erin: 6:55

So it’s very important. Yes, exactly. Oh yeah, the rec match is important. Yes, not the coaching, the match.Carolyn: 7:02

The match. Okay, I have another one. If I beat a player 6-0, 6-0, I should get bombed.Jenifer: 7:07

So I think part of the discussion when we talk about the ratings may have answered that. But again, each match that you play has an expected outcome and to the extent that you do better or worse than that expected outcome, you’re going to either raise or lower your dynamic rating. The fact of the matter is there are 50 different little ratings within each assigned rating and some players are always supposed to lose those matches if they’re at the lower end of that rating. So a 6-0, 6-0 loss or win should be maybe exactly what the computer projected.Erin: 7:47

It’s funny this was not on our list, but it makes me think there are a lot of people that believe if they play singles it somehow helps their rating, right. So it’s not necessarily that you’re playing singles or you’re playing doubles or you know. It really has to do with the computer. If I’m playing singles against Carolyn, if we didn’t know each other, we’re opponents. The computer still has an idea of what should happen in that match. It has nothing to do with oh, because I’m on a singles court now.Jenifer: 8:17

I have a better chance of getting bumped correct. That’s right. I mean it’s going to be an expected outcome, but clearly to the extent that there’s a difference because there’s somebody else on the court that dynamic to consider. So singles obviously it’s opponent versus opponent, whereas in a doubles match all four players dynamics will be considered. But that’s the only difference. There will be an expected outcome in each case.Erin: 8:40

So I think this answers it, but one of the other questions further down on our list is if I play number one like number one line, I will get bumped.Jenifer: 8:49

Yeah, again, I think a lot of those urban legends are geared towards if this, then I get bumped, if this, then I don’t get bumped. And the bottom line is, I think, if you just think about it in summary, as there is an expected outcome based upon the dynamic ratings of the players on the court and if you beat or don’t beat that expected outcome, you go up or down and that’s really all that affects that number.Carolyn: 9:14

The next one is if you play college tennis, you are automatically a 5-0. And I know that’s wrong, because I’ve played some people that play college tennis and they were not a 5-0.Jenifer: 9:24

On the self-rate questionnaire, there are going to be minimum levels that are assigned to specific levels of experience high school and then drill down how much high school did you play? At what championship level did you play high school? And the same is true in college what level of college did you play? So certainly there are going to be minimum assigned ratings based upon the experience, based on the age, and then, even though a rating may be assigned for example, if my experience points to 5.0, I can still file a self-rate appeal, and if my section self-rate appeals committee grants my appeal to 4.5 from a 5.0, then that’s a way I can legitimately get a different rating as well. So, yeah, there are general rules and general guidelines in terms of what experience will yield a certain assignment of minimum rating, but there are a variety of factors in play, as well as the ability to file a self-rate appeal.Erin: 10:17

So I used to think that any like we’ve faced D1 college players before, but not college tennis players I used to actually think if you were a D1 college player of some sport or pro like we’ve actually interviewed pro professional athletes like in different sports baseball you know whatever that they had to come in at a certain rating. Is that incorrect?Jenifer: 10:43

Yeah, there’s currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire that asks about college football, for example, or college basketball. There are routinely high-level college athletes playing tennis and it doesn’t necessarily mean, because you may be an all-pro wide receiver, that you can hit a tennis ball well. So I think that’s the reason. But no, there’s currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire involving college sports other than racket sports.Erin: 11:09

So all those D1 volleyball players that I’m facing, I know they’re so good, they’re so good.Jenifer: 11:14

Yeah, and when you have, when you’re playing a sport that has a lot of that, has an element of hand-eye coordination, when you self-rate, the guidelines do say that you should be mindful of the ability that you have based upon those sports and your ability and your probably capacity to improve, and then you should self-rate accordingly. But that’s a should and not must, and so many players don’t necessarily rate it allowing that time for improvement.Carolyn: 11:42

And this is kind of a follow-up question I did have real quick, which was it’s your section that determines your appeal of your self-rate. So I go in and do my self-rate form. We live in the Southern section, which is what? What is it? Jennifer, 25% of adult players are in this section, but it’s Southern that will determine whether or not the appeal gets approved. So everybody across the country that’s listening, if they’re not in the Southern section, their own section will do that. Is that correct?Jenifer: 12:08

That’s right. Each section will have a committee or a group of people who will review those self-rate appeals, and in Southern we have committees that do that.Erin: 12:20

Okay, Last question about Urban Legends, even though we could talk all day about it.Jenifer: 12:33

Okay, last question about urban legends, even though we could talk all day about it. But are the third party websites there? Are multiple sites that maybe some of us crazy captains look at for people’s dynamic ratings. Are those legit? But USTA does not endorse NTRP ratings that are generated from any other third-party sites. The third-party websites cannot accurately recreate the algorithm and, as a result, we don’t use those at all for any USTA processes, including grievance processes.Carolyn: 12:57

So during your grievance like when we file a grievance we shouldn’t say this person has a tennis record of something.Jenifer: 13:04

No, that’s fake news.Erin: 13:07

That is not going to fly with the grievance committee. Yeah.Carolyn: 13:12

Yeah, that’s perfect. I do have a question. You don’t have to answer this, but to me this whole algorithm, your NTRP dynamic rating, it seems like something in a black box. How can we learn more about it?Jenifer: 13:29

I think that the basic information that you’re looking for is on the USTA website. There’s an NTRP set of frequently asked questions that give a fairly detailed amount of guidance. I think maybe what players should remember is just go out and play. There’s really no players, I know, want so badly to know their rating to 100s, but I would ask to what end. But there has to be some sort of algorithm and some sort of basis, because our sport, our league tennis, is based upon fair-based play and so many recreational sports are not. You could play in a I will just pick out a sport kickball league and I could walk on the court and never having played kickball and be playing a professional kickball player. So we really work hard in league tennis to have fair-based plays. There has to be a system, and I think this is the best system we have, and to the extent that players are trying to find out more and more and more information again, I would ask why? And let’s just go play.Carolyn: 14:32

Great answer. Why do you think Erin? Because we’re crazy league players. Exactly.Erin: 14:36

No, and I agree with that 100%. I get into the, you know, I want to know who we’re facing and what their ratings are and where I should best put my players and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, if you are in it for the reason which you should be, which is competitive but fun Um, and you have a sport and you’re an adult, um, and you’re outside or inside playing the sport of tennis, just enjoy it and don’t try to overthink it. I just think a lot of us are a little type A and like to control it all Competitive yeah.Erin: 15:06

But yes, 100 percent, you’re there to have fun.Jenifer: 15:08

Yeah, it’s a lot of fun to talk about, but again, I think the USDA provides a fair amount of information on the website If folks will go to that.Erin: 15:18

Those frequently asked questions Then we wouldn’t have so many urban legends, if they did their homework, that’s true.Carolyn: 15:27

Thanks again to Jennifer for coming on the podcast. We hope you check out our website, which is SecondServePodcastcom. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon. 

The post Ep. 314: USTA League Urban Legends appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

We were thrilled to speak to Jenifer Tucker about self rates. Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board of Directors.  She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee and Regulation Subcommittee and previously served on the USTA Constitution & Rules Committee.  

At the Southern sectional level, Jenifer most recently served as the chair of the USTA Southern Adult League Committee and was a member of that committee for five terms.  She is also the long-time chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee.  A former USTA Arkansas president, she continues to serve on the USTA Arkansas Board as a past president and as chair of the USTA Arkansas Adult League and League Grievance committees.  

An attorney and resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas, Jenifer is involved in League tennis in Northwest Arkansas after serving as the areas’s local league coordinator for five years. She is also a 4.5 player!

Here’s a Complete Transcript of Our Conversation with Jenifer

Hi, this is Carolyn, and I’m here with Erin, and we are thrilled to interview Jenifer Tucker. Jenifer is vice president of the USTA Southern Board Directors. She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee. She is the longtime chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee. She was a former president of USTA Arkansas. She is an attorney and was a local league coordinator, and she is a four or five player. She’s also on a bunch of other committees, but we don’t have enough time to list them. So, Jenifer, thank you so much. We are so excited to interview you. And let’s start off and talk about self-rates. Can you talk a little bit about the process and appeals and anything we should know?Jenifer: 0:44

So when you start the process of self-rating, you’re either going to be coming in to leagues new or coming into leagues after you’ve set out for a while. So you’re going to complete what’s called a self-rate questionnaire and you’re going to answer all those questions honestly and accurately, disclosing all of your experience. And then what those questions will do is to assign a minimum rating. And at that point, if you’re not satisfied with what that assignment is, you can then do a self-rate appeal. And what that is, is that you literally just click the button after you have self-rated and write down at that point, it’s your one-shot everything that you think would be relevant as to why that minimum assignment isn’t accurate. And the Southern Self-Rate Appeals Committee, so volunteers, actual people will look at those decisions or look at those uh appeal reasons and make a decision as to whether your reasons are sufficient enough to really override that self-rate questionnaire.Carolyn: 1:42

What if I’m the person that plays this the person that has a 4-0 self-rate? Can I then file a grievance? Like how does what can I do?Jenifer: 1:53

So if you’ve gone through that process correctly and you’ve answered all those questions honestly and appropriately, and you’ve gone through the appeal process and you’re granted an appeal, then you’ve done what you’re supposed to do. Now you may be able to be DQ’ dynamically, that is, by your play, which is the computer assessing whether you’ve hit the number of strikes for your dynamics. But in terms of anyone else complaining about you, the only sufficient real basis for a grievance would be a self-rate grievance. And you, Carolyn, would would basically file the grievance and say, I played this player. I believe he played college tennis. He didn’t disclose that college tennis on his self-rate questionnaire. Therefore, I’m filing a grievance. But if he did file the, he did complete the self-rate questionnaire, honestly, there would be no really basis to uphold that grievance.Erin: 2:43

Okay, that explains a lot to me. Now, because, for instance, we had a friend play a woman who was self-rated in tri-level this year, which now tri-level counts towards ratings, and she they didn’t get rocked, but she clearly knew the woman wasn’t at her correct level. Well, she didn’t think she was at her correct level. So she went to our state coordinator, and our state coordinator came back and said she filled out, she did disclose that she played in college. And I think that’s what when you said that. So it’s not that she didn’t disclose it or that she’s just so good that she shouldn’t be at that rating. She would get basically DQ’d or in trouble, we’ll say, if she didn’t actually answer the questionnaire correctly. If she answered it correctly and the computer said you are a 3-5 or you are a 4-0, she’s allowed to play at that level because she answered all the questions correctly. So it sounds like my friend just complaining to our state coordinator isn’t good enough to get someone DQ’d or, you know, right in front of a board. Is that correct?Jenifer: 3:39

There are basically two ways to get DQ’d. And what I call this is not uh a regulation language, this is my language. Uh, you can get DQ’d an objective way, which is the computer reviews will will know your dynamic ratings after every match you play. So that is an objective way. In other words, there are no people involved. Or you can get disqualified by a grievance, and that would be if you didn’t disclose something properly on your self-rate questionnaire, a player could file a grievance or a coordinator could file a grievance, and a committee at that point would then review whether you’ve answered those questions inappropriately, at which point you would be DQ’d. So one has to do with the computer, the other has to do with people in terms of how you get DQ’d, grievance versus dynamic DQ by a computer.Erin: 4:30

So is that grievance committee? I just I pictured as like a panel of you sitting around, like in a court of law. Um, but so however many people that there are on that committee, does that mean that you guys have to almost investigate? Like, do you have to look to see are they playing by their real name? Are they, did they play in college and they didn’t disclose it? Like, do you have to do Google searches on people? How do you find that information out?Jenifer: 4:54

So typically these NTRP grievances are coming to us at the Southern League Grievance Committee level by coordinators. So all NTRP grievances, these self-rate grievances, come directly to the Southern Adult League Grievance Committee. They don’t, they’re not heard locally. And typically what will happen is a coordinator, be it a local league coordinator or a state league coordinator, will file those grievances. And in those cases where coordinators are filing, they’ll really provide most of the information that is necessary. So, for example, if a player has played in college, and I’ll make it easier, is playing at 3.0 and they’re 27 years old, and someone has heard that they’ve played Division I college tennis. At that point, it’s fairly easy to Google that person’s name, see them on their college tennis roster. The coordinator will provide that link, will provide the self-rate questionnaire. Those are fairly straightforward and simple. But yes, there are other times when maybe a captain has filed a grievance and there’s some suspicion, but they may not have all the evidence necessary, at which point either coordinator or the committee or both will do a little bit further investigation.Erin: 6:07

Google searching. Google search, Google searching. Do you ever follow anyone out to the court and watch them play?Jenifer: 6:15

Contrary to popular opinion, there’s no eye test for these. These are going to be limited to whether a person completed that self-rate questionnaire appropriately.Erin: 6:27

Okay. Has anyone sent in video of someone playing to prove their point? They’ve submitted it, but we’ve not reviewed it.Jenifer: 6:34

We get pictures, we get YouTube videos, we’ve got all sorts of evidence. And again, it’s it’s like the old verifier in terms of the rating. The ratings are not based upon the eye test or pros’ opinion or a captain’s opinion.Carolyn: 6:48

And so just to reiterate so that I have this correct, because people ask us questions all the time. For me to get DQ’s, I’m a self-rate. Let’s say I’m a 3-0 self-rate. For me to get DQ’d, it can only be by the computer and then, or it can be where I lied when filling out the self-rate form. That’s basically it. That’s right.Jenifer: 7:09

That’s simplified. That’s it. For example, I think the most common misconception is I can play a player next week and I get beat 6060. And I think to myself, there is no way that player is rated X. I’m going to call my local league coordinator. The local league coordinator can do nothing about that. The coordinator, as Erin mentioned, can look up and make sure those players have answered those questions appropriately. But contrary to popular opinion, someone telling on you, quote unquote, is not going to get someone DQ’d unless a grievance is filed, alleging that the person has not disclosed their experience appropriately.Carolyn: 7:48

And this question kind of goes, we’re going to talk about urban legends in our next episode. But is it correct that from a computer perspective, there has to be three strikes against you or three matches where you, I guess, score higher? I think this may be important for the self-rate episode too.Jenifer: 8:07

Right. So when a player is self-rated, the player is assigned a general rating, a 3.5, a 4.0. And the computer is going to come up with an expected outcome every time that player plays a match. And it’s not based upon a one-loss record, but it’s going to be an expected outcome. And every time that player plays a match, a dynamic rating is going to be generated. That is a rating to the 100th of a point. And there is a threshold at every level under which a player, if he he or she jumps above that, would receive what’s called a strike. So if the player receives three strikes, which is going above that threshold three times after three matches, then they would be disqualified at that level. And that’s not for computer rates at this point. It’s only for self-rates. Is it for appeals too? Also for appeals. Okay. Appeal-rated players.Erin: 8:59

So are you saying that it does not go for like if like I’m a computer-rated 4-0? If I’m playing and I’m just rocking it, let’s say, you know, spring’s about to start and I’m just rocking it. I’m beating everybody 6060. Now, as a computer-rated 4-0, could I get disqualified?Jenifer: 9:14

No, as a computer-rated player, you could not be disqualified during the season. You will be you could be moved up or down at the at the end of the year, which would be a year-end rating. Good to know, but it’s not going to happen anyway.Carolyn: 9:26

But I just, you know, just in case. Just in case, Erin. Not something we have to worry about.Erin: 9:32

Okay, so Jenifer, you are not only on grievance committees and in on all types of committees from local to national. I’m sure you’ve had some crazy uh situations on the court, off the court, in the actual court of law. Can you give us something? Probably the craziest or funniest situations I can’t talk about.Jenifer: 9:54

Perhaps it would uh maybe give up the identity of the folks. But yeah, I think that from the standpoint of what we may consider normal now, unfortunately, might seem crazy to some, and that is we’re seeing uh an increasing number of players create second USTA accounts uh to get a different rating. And you know, not only is it a new regulation that a player can only have one USTA account, but it’s also for the for the last several years, in fact, been a violation of the rules to to create it a second account just for the purposes of getting a different rating, which we’ve seen a f a fair amount of times.Carolyn: 10:35

I just don’t understand why people would do multiple accounts and try to get different ratings. That just seems so crazy to me.Jenifer: 10:43

Yeah, I think yeah, I I I some of it’s a head scratcher. I think, you know, so sometimes players simply don’t understand that that you can’t stay out for a while and come back at a lower level and they just can’t understand why, for example, that why they’re put back at the level that they left. And and the reason is just generally speaking, that self-rate is the rating that’s assigned at that point. And if you’re really doing it correctly, you need to allow for improvement. So if I’m a new player, or if I’m a player coming back to tennis and I was a 4.0 five years ago, and I come back, the general player playing once or twice a week or three times a week is going to get back to that level at which they left. Uh, and so that’s the assumption. And I think that many players don’t agree or maybe not can wrap their brain around that. And I think it that’s the thing that most people have to remember that certainly when we’ve taken off, we don’t come back at full strength that day. But as we say, if we knock the rust off, we’re going to come back and eventually get to the level that we left.Erin: 11:53

Okay, now I have a real question, like a good question. So I don’t know if people are cheating the system or what is happening, but um, for instance, there are sometimes teams, and maybe people are just gobbling up all a bunch of self-rates, but sometimes there are teams literally made up of all self-rates except for maybe a few. So are those people that are, I know we don’t know if they’re telling the truth or not, but are they really just coming into USTA? Or have they come back and they’re like they don’t come back as a self-rate, right? They if they come back in after several years, they’re still at the level that they were at when they left. But how are these teams, like we’ll call them super teams, having so many self-rates? Like, we know there was a team at Nationals this year that was like 12 self-rates and two computer-rated people.Jenifer: 12:44

So if you’re sitting out for several years and you’ve had a computer rating, you would come back as a self-rate because the computer ratings are only valid for two or three years, depending. And and so what would happen is you would complete that self-rate questionnaire and you would get the last rating that you left, or or uh maybe even a higher rating depending on how you answered that self-rate questionnaire. But you would show up as a self-rate. Uh, and there are a variety of reasons. Certainly, beginning teams, it’s not uncommon to see 2.5 or 3.0 teams completely with complete rosters of self-rates. Uh, and it’s not always even uncommon at higher levels. For example, you might have a 4.0 or 4.5 team full of 20-somethings who just came out of high school. So we’re wanting to get them into league tennis. And so I think there’s a misconception by many league players that if there’s a team full of self-rates, then there’s something nefarious going on. We want to see new players come into league tennis, and there may be, there may be an entire group of friends who are starting tennis together or starting league tennis together who have had quite a bit of tennis experience. So it may not be limited to 2.5 or 3.0 teams. It could very well be 4.0 or 4.5. So I think it’s an assumption that I think it’s it’s reasonable or to think maybe that there might be something uh amiss, but but sometimes it’s simply they’re they’re new to tennis or new to league tennis.Erin: 14:07

That’s actually a really good point because when we see self-rates, we think I mean a group of self-rates, we think sandbaggers. So that is a really good um way of ex explaining it, why that happens.Carolyn: 14:20

And Jenifer, can you also tell us your most memorable moment on the court?Jenifer: 14:23

Well, I mean, it may be boring to folks who have gone to national championships, but I started league tennis at a late age, and and my primary reason was that I played basketball and wanted some sort of team experience, and it was all about team for me. So by far, my most memorable experience was my first state championship. And and it was far more memorable, far, far more exciting for me than a tournament. The reason why I played league tennis, the reason why I think league tennis is the best recreational sport out there is the team concept.Carolyn: 14:54

I agree, and that’s how I met Erin. Exactly. Thanks to Jenifer for coming on the podcast. We have another episode with Jenifer where we discuss different urban legends we have heard. Also, Jenifer mentioned that some of the questions and answers contained in this episode are based on the southern section perspective, so that the processes and some regulations in other sections may be different in some instances. We hope you check out our website, which is secondservodcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.

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The post Ep. 313: Understanding USTA Self-Rating And DQs appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Here’s a Complete Transcript of Our Conversation with Gin

Carolyn: 0:07

Hi, this is Carolyn, and I’m here with Erin. And Gin is back on the podcast. She started out as a 3-5. She was so good. She got bumped to a 5-0. And because of Gin, I’ve changed my mind on what you should do in a situation. And the situation is a ball rolls in the court between your first and second serve. Erin and I have talked about this numerous times on the podcast. And we have always said you give a first serve if this happens. That just, you know, it’s the right thing to do. It makes everything easier. And Gin, I think what were you yelling at the podcast when you listened to us discuss this?Gin: 0:48

Or you were so upset by what Yeah, I I yes, I don’t like it. I don’t like, I don’t like there’s too much gray area to this.Erin: 0:55

And Carolyn doesn’t like gray area. And I think that’s why we said just make it a first serve. Like make it a rule, it’s just a first serve. But so but Gin convinced us otherwise and well convinced Carolyn. And I wanna, I wanna hear the arguments.Carolyn: 1:07

Yeah, Gin. So t tell us, Gin, why you think it should be a second serve. Yes.Gin: 1:11

Well, I think I think that there’s a lot of gray area went with it. And I think that there is games gamesmanship that people just naturally do. I think if you have a really strong server, then you’re giving them a huge advantage to give them another first serve, you know. And I think people do watch for this and I think they take advantage of it. And I mean, I have seen people hit a first serve in the net and then, you know, maybe somehow the ball rolls over on the next court and they kind of look at the other court like, aren’t you gonna toss it back? Like waiting and looking for that, looking for that extra serve. And, you know, I think I think maybe where I got you, Carolyn, was talking about basketball. You know, to me, you and I both play basketball. It’s sort of like getting a first free throw again. Like if something happens in the game like that’s chaos, and you’re like, well, yeah, this guy, you know, the flow of his two free throws got disturbed. So give him a first free throw again. I’m like, what? No, no, no, no, no. He missed the first free throw. Same thing to me here. You know, the first serve was missed. You know, it’s over, it’s gone. And and I just think I think there’s that the potential for gamesmanship. There is the potential for an extra unfair advantage for big servers. And and I just think it’s so gray because I think there’s different what what bothers one person doesn’t bother the next. You know, then there’s this whole like, well, she gave it to me, now I’ve got to give it to her. And then it just becomes like literally like the smallest, you know, someone sneezes and they look at you like, well, and it just it just I just think it’s too gray.Erin: 2:40

Well, and I think the rule, even though it’s a gray area, I think it’s the opponent’s discretion, but everyone has their own opinion on how much is too long or whatever. And I think that’s the prop problem. It’s like sometimes you’re like, well, it took a long time to fetch the ball and to give it back, or sometimes it could be like thrown over really quickly. But if the rule is like you always get a first serve, then it’s like, yeah, what Jin was saying is like, well, then there could be no time between, and then you just keep get to keep hitting a first serve all you want, you know, for as many times as it happens.Carolyn: 3:08

So you know, I didn’t care what the rule was, I just wanted it consistent. And so I would say now after listening to Gin, you only get a second serve. Like, no matter what, no matter how long the time frame is, only second serves because then at least it’s consistent match to match. Okay, but I think the reason people have trouble with is because the rule is confusing and it’s not clear. So this is um page 41 of the code number 30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves. So that’s when somebody’s actually serving, the ball’s going, it’s elect. You know, you’re starting the point over. Now they go. And that’s clear. We’re good with that. Yeah, everybody’s good with that. When there’s a delay between the first and second serves, okay, here it is. It says the server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay. The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. And then underneath that, it says the time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves. They need to take all that out.Erin: 4:36

That’s that, yeah. I was like, hold on. Like I couldn’t even process it. Oh, sorry. Was I reading it too fast? No, no, no, no, you weren’t. No, I was processing. Yeah, but I’m gonna say something. I’m gonna read, like, say back what I think I heard of one, only one portion of it because that was way too long. So if I cause, if I’m the server and I’m in my if I’m in my second serve motion and something happens, I just get that’s a let. I just get another second serve. Yeah, like after you’ve served it. Yes. But if I serve, if I’m the set server and I’m serving a second serve, but I’ve caused my own delay, yeah. Like what? Like the ball falls out of my hands?Carolyn: 5:08

Yeah, or maybe I need to my I need to change my sunglasses between my first and second.Erin: 5:12

I’m the cause. You’re the cause. Yeah. I’m the problem. It’s me.Carolyn: 5:15

Yeah, if not, you could always get first serves, right? I’d be like, oh, I gotta do my sunglasses first serves. Oh, I gotta get it. Oh, I see.Gin: 5:21

Or I think another example that would happen more often is you as the server go wait for the next court to give you a ball. Or you you are the one sort of like, well, let me get this ball. Let me, you know, you can’t, you can’t cause the delay.Erin: 5:33

It’s like not being able to cause your own hindrance. Yeah, you can’t hinder yourself. Yeah. So maybe that’s the language it needs to say. No. No. No.Carolyn: 5:40

Okay. It needs to say second serve only. Yeah.Gin: 5:43

Between there is, yeah. Nope. No. No.Erin: 5:46

Okay, go, Gin.Gin: 5:47

Yeah, well, because it’s still gray. Yeah. Even it’s still gonna because even in what Carolyn said, it’s the server to decide what is what constitutes, I can’t remember now the language, but an unusual delay or something. The receiver, whatever the word. The receiver. Right, right. But even that is still going to be what you know, what bothers one person is is is gonna be different. And then there’s gonna be all this annoyance because, well, I gave you one and now you’re not gonna give me one. Well, I wasn’t bothered and I didn’t think it was long, and it’s just, it’s just too gray. You can’t you can’t govern that. You can’t it and so again, I hate to keep using the basketball example, but like that, it’s just once it’s once that first serve is done, it’s done.Erin: 6:27

So what happens if, and maybe this is not the gray area. I guess I guess this isn’t the gray area because it’s a disturbance from another court. But what if, you know how many times we play matches and we serve a first serve and then we’re getting ready to sec to serve a second serve, but our first serve went to the court right next right next to us, right? And those people just pick up the ball and not even seeing where we are. Oftentimes what I do is I don’t even look at them as a receiver or as a server. I’m like, I don’t want that ball, don’t throw me that ball. It’s on your court, I’ll get it later. You know, but sometimes people just do it anyway. So then is that does that here’s the rule.Gin: 6:58

This is what our new rule would be. If you have started your second serve motion, you would be entitled to a first serve. Yep, because then the point had started. And that’s what Carolyn said. That’s the rule. So you so if you had been in your second serve motion and then they toss the ball onto your court, you have to stop the point. Yeah. And so then it would be the whole point would start over. But that would be a less.Carolyn: 7:17

What if they that’s different?Gin: 7:18

That’s different than the delay between the first and second. Exactly. But if they toss it on when you can still stop and get it, you just got to deal with that.Erin: 7:27

Yes, you know, because I’m not actually in a service motion.Gin: 7:29

You did I mean it’s someone is looking. And I’ll tell you what I would do is I would say, Hey, thanks. Next time, please don’t toss the ball on. You know, if I’m it look like I’m not ready because I I would like to serve my next ball. If you don’t mind, just put it back at the back fence. You know, I I would say something nicely like that. But yeah, that would clear up the convention, right?Erin: 7:48

Yeah, but you know how many times people do that, and it’s so annoying. Because oftentimes, like if I’m the receiver and it’s you know, it’s hit towards me, right? Because I’m receiving the ball, and then the ball goes to the court next to me, I’m still in my ready position, ready for them to serve their second serve, not for me to look over at the court, get the ball back, put it in my pocket, and then be like, all right, go get your set, you know, or or knowing that they’re gonna, and I also try to not disturb their routine, right? So I’m literally standing in ready position to receive, and then someone on the court next to me is like hucking a ball back over, you know, our way.Gin: 8:21

So well, I think that needs to be, you know, part of the new um, you know, the Carolyn general way around this is that the the tennis etiquette is, you know, if a ball comes onto your court from the next court over, you know, you need to just put it look, you can look over there. And if no one is looking at you like, yeah, yeah, toss it to me, then just walk back to, you know, either near the bench where it can be, you know, near the bench, wherever it’s gonna be where they can get it, uh back at the fence, whatever it is, that they can retrieve it, it’s now their business, they can get it when they’re ready. And that’s that’s now tennis etiquette is you don’t, you know, you don’t you’d never toss throw a ball at them when they’re not ready and they don’t look like they want it. Yeah.Carolyn: 8:58

Um, I think that’s but I think people do need to be taught that because let me tell you, I’ve done that a number of times where the boss comes to me and then I’m like, hey, but I look at people first. I don’t toss it without looking, but sometimes I do toss it to them and then I can see the awkward situation happen of whether there’s a first serve or not. Well, and do you know why?Gin: 9:18

Do you know why this is? Is because the servers are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The servers like, yeah, and the returners are like, no, no, no, no, don’t toss it. So that’s the problem. Yeah. And that’s what I’m talking about. About the like, so it’s almost kind of like your club, you better be watching. Is my club serving or is my club receiving? And so it’s just, it’s this like whole, I mean, seriously, I think people do that, you know.Erin: 9:39

Like, I’m gonna book a court for my two really good friends, four of my really good friends next to a court that I have to win, right? And then I’m gonna say, when it looks like I need a first serve, you’re gonna throw a ball in there. Yeah, and I’m gonna go, hey, hey.Gin: 9:51

Yeah, or if my team is serving, I’m always, oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to toss, toss you, you know. But if my team’s receiving, oh, that’s like a brick, you know, that’s like a steel chair. You’re not getting things over here.Erin: 10:00

You’re not getting that ball back. No, don’t make eye contact with me, don’t look at me.Carolyn: 10:05

But they need to change friend at court. Friend at court needs to just say if there’s a delay between the first and second serve, sorry, you get one serve. It doesn’t matter whether the receiver’s the cause of the delay, it doesn’t matter anything because then there’s too much gray area. It needs to be one serve no matter what.Erin: 10:22

Okay, I have a hand on the case. Okay, why is that? Carolyn can, actually, one of our friends. The delay was so long, they had a conversation with a court next to them.Carolyn: 10:31

This rule, the way it’s written, yes, still well, well, it says the server, the way it’s written is the server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. So to me, this is why when we first started, I was like, the way the rule’s written to me is a ball rolling into the court is outside interference. Like you didn’t cause that ball to roll into the court, you should get a first serve. So that’s the reason why I’ve always been like, even though they have that little paragraph saying, hey, the time it takes for a ball to roll in and go out is not sufficient to give a first serve. I mean, it’s very confusing the way it’s written versus it just needs to say you’re not entitled to flow between your first and second serve. No matter what happens, you only get a second serve.Gin: 11:22

Because I mean, it’s like, where is the line? Yeah. Are you entitled to flow between 15 love and 15 all? You know, are you entitled to flow in a game? Are you entitled to No? You know, we’re never entitled to a flow. You know, like if there’s a bother between fit, you know, a point, do you should you go back to the beginning of that game? No. You know, it it’s it’s I don’t like the way that point happened. It’s happened. It it someone threw the ball up, tried to hit it over the net, and they did not succeed to get it in the box. It happened. Like it is over.Erin: 11:54

So maybe that’s the language. The language is entitled to.Carolyn: 11:57

Yeah, or maybe you’re never entitled to uh if there’s a delay, no matter what happens, there’s a rainstorm, somebody comes over and talks to you. It doesn’t matter. It just to make it easy. Now, do I think people can get first serves? I’ve always given first serves. No matter what happens, if somebody coughs, I’ll give a first serve. Um no, you will not. I do. I’m like, oh, did anything bother you? Did you sneeze? Did anything bother you? And to be honest, at my level, I haven’t played too many people that are acing me constantly so that it’s really that big of a deal. It may be more of a big deal for Gin, since she plays at the 5-0 level or playing mixed, that may be, or men’s even, but like I’m not getting aced constantly. So I’ve always kind of been like first serve. And it’s so hard. I mean, I we were talking about this right before we started. Gin, what would what do you do if somebody said gives you a first serve when a ball rolls in?Gin: 12:53

Yeah. Um, in in matches, you know, I sometimes will be like, okay, but in friendlies, I will say, no, no, no, no, no, you know, that’s good. And then I typically will not even give myself the first serve, even if they say it and it seems like it’s gonna be first serve. I’ll just hit a what is considered to me a second safe serve. Um, just because I kind of I don’t know, I just I don’t like the whole thing. And so I kind of almost don’t accept the first serve. Right.Erin: 13:15

She now she sticks by her own what she wants the world to be.Gin: 13:18

I’m also not acing people, Carolyn. So I guess you know, if I was that is probably when I have become the most passionate about this and when I’ve gotten the most irritated, is is playing Five O mixed. I mean, that’s that’s a different thing when you face a Five O guy serve. Um there are yeah, there are gonna be some each game that I don’t get back. And that’s sub you know, that’s substantial if you’re um facing a second serve that you have a much better chance to get back. And so yeah. So have you faced this situation in mix that you can think of?Erin: 13:49

Where like and you just didn’t give a second serve. You’re like, nope.Gin: 13:52

Did they ask for first? Did they ask? Men and men aren’t gonna ask for uh uh no, uh they don’t ask, but they will sort of look like, are you gonna give me one? And I’d I’m I’m not giving it. And the answer is no, Gin’s like shaking her head. You’re like no no. I have not faced like a huge disturbance. I probably would have given one if there was truly like a big something, but like I I am I’m not given one for like a bro ball rolling over or having to retrieve a, you know, I’m not, I’m not, I feel like that is a huge unfair advantage.Carolyn: 14:21

But I also think it’s your expectation. So that’s my issue with it, is that I don’t care, even to this, like I think it’s clearer if you only get a second serve. I wouldn’t care. I I see Gin’s point, but the problem I’ve always had is like it changed match to match. Like some opponents always gave first serves, some opponents wouldn’t. And so it’s just always this like awkward moment of is she gonna give it? Is she not? Was that long enough? And we all kind of stare at each other. And then if they’ve given it to me, I can never then be like, oh, second serve for you.Erin: 14:57

Yeah, that’s what I was gonna say. That’s when it does get awkward because you’re like, really? I gave you one when there wasn’t even that long of a delay, and now you’re being now, now all of a sudden I don’t like you because you’re not giving me the sample. Or I’m a jerk. I’m a jerk, and then there’s a whole different mentality going on in my game, right? Because now I’m like, wow, I was really nice to that girl and she didn’t give me a first service, or you know, whatever.Carolyn: 15:19

So you guys did the cutest video. It was um this or that, and this was at eight five states. Eight five. So these are four.Erin: 15:30

And our five-o.Carolyn: 15:30

Oh, and now oh, five. Oh, and she’s a five. Oh, that’s right. Because I played with a three-five. Well, she played with a three five.Erin: 15:35

Oh, so eight, five, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we had a superstar three five.Carolyn: 15:39

There’s five. There’s a five-o lady and a three five. And they said if a ball rolls in between the first and second, do you give a first serve or not? And it was completely equal, right?Erin: 15:50

Split even, split split on, I think, of us, yeah, yeah. I think if we had had a debate about it, we could have convinced people one way or the other. But yeah, I mean, just I think that’s what happens, right? It’s 50% of the people on the court are gonna do it, and 50% aren’t gonna do it.Gin: 16:03

And I think in fairness, probably some of those of us who went to know would sometimes reluctantly do it. But it’s more we don’t like the rule. We don’t like this whole, you know, I think it’s more about like nobody knows when to, when not to. So it’s more that we’re annoyed by it, I think. Uh probably. We’re gonna redo that, this or that, and ask that question.Erin: 16:21

Yes. How annoyed are you by these rules?Carolyn: 16:23

Or change this rule. If you change the rule, I think everybody’d be fine with it. Um well, maybe not. Nobody, not ever. Well, everybody’s gonna be happy. I feel like we’re gonna get a lot of comments of well, they took a really long time or the receiver caused the delay. But I kind of feel like you just have to deal with that.Gin: 16:40

Mechanically, let’s talk about mechanically. Your your second serve is its own motion. You know, it is not, you are not, you know, doing your first serve and then keeping your racket going and going into your second serve. You know, it is its own separate, you reset, you do your second serve. I mean, we need to be ready to do a second serve without I don’t I don’t understand it being seen as so can so connected. See, I thought we were entitled to flow.Carolyn: 17:05

I mean, there’s nowhere in the rules that says that you um are, but I’ve always at 253035, I kind of have always felt like, oh, you don’t want to take a big break between their first and second. Let’s let them go. I kind of felt like you were entitled to flow. And Rebel Good told me he does the Court of Appeals column for um Tennis Magazine, or he did. And he was like, you’re not entitled to flow. So that kind of changed my mind on that.Erin: 17:32

Do you think that you think that that you used to think that way, that you’re you’re entitled to flow because of watching pros? Because ours are not officiated matches, but what we watch on TV are officiated matches and they are kind of entitled to flow. In fact, they have like serve clocks and they have, you know, all that stuff. Do you think that you just thought that because you watched tennis or because you just thought it was a courtesy, like that was just part of it? I thought it was just part of it.Carolyn: 17:57

Maybe a little bit of both, Erin. I think so.Erin: 17:59

Yeah. You think it was just such a like nicer.Carolyn: 18:02

Yeah, at 2-5, we always did it. At 2-5 at 3-0.Gin: 18:06

I well, I think at 2-5 you’re just so glad you get another serve. And everybody’s like, yes, every let’s let’s all take, you know, let’s all serve something. Yeah, yeah. I don’t I just think I think that is a little bit of the mentality, but it becomes very different when it’s um it’s changing the outcome with all these first serves.Carolyn: 18:23

I have a question. I’ve never played 5-0 tennis. Jim, what have you found at 5-0? Have do people give first serves? Do they not? Not as much.Gin: 18:31

They’re not as they’re not as bothered by a ball rolling on uh over and it’s less. I mean, that it will happen occasionally, but I find the threshold for like what’s considered substantially bothersome or whatever the language is in the thing is is is much lower at the lower levels. You know, like you said, a sneeze might trigger a first serve. Um, whereas at 5-0, it’s gotta be much bigger deal. You know, even a even a ball rolling over and somebody quickly hitting it back over, you know, we’re not giving it typically.Carolyn: 19:00

Okay, how about you, Erin? Have you changed your mind? Are you gonna give Yeah?Erin: 19:04

No, I’m I’m actually with you guys. I I I do like rules too. I like it to just be one way or the other.Carolyn: 19:10

Yeah, but I think the rule should change because I think in a match I still will be like first serve, even though I agree which just because of the way the rule’s written right now, or if they give it to me first, but I do agree it should be second only. I just think the rule needs to change.Erin: 19:26

It’s funny, and we’ve changed over time, and that was thanks to Gin. Thanks, Gin.Gin: 19:30

I think that’s why y’all’s podcast is titled Second Serve is like, you know, like we knew all along, some deep down somewhere y’all knew that like we were gonna do this episode. We should only give second serves. Only second serves, right? Y’all aren’t called first serves.Carolyn: 19:45

Thanks again to Gin for coming on the podcast. Please let us know if you agree with Gin or if you’ve had any awkward or strange situations happen when deciding whether to give a first serve or second serve. We hope you check out our website, which Second surveycast.com. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.

Below are some of our most popular episodes with Gin

Gin’s Journey from 3.5 to 5.0 – Part 1

Gin’s Journey from 3.5 to 5.0 – Part 2

The post Ep. 312: First or Second Serve? appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Carolyn came up with a list of things that are annoying to her when playing. She asked Dave and Tom if they annoy them as well. Here’s her list:

1. Hitting winners during warm-ups

Annoying! We all agreed hitting winners during warm-ups is annoying but Tom thinks “baby tennis” is even more annoying. He would rather see someone hit their best shot (a winner) then play baby tennis. He thinks he’ll never see those types of shots in a match. Tom said that when an opponents hit drop shots during warm-ups that that annoys him though.

2. Throwing a racquet

Carolyn and Erin think when women throw their racquets in tennis matches it’s not only an annoying situation on the court but also awkward. In men’s matches, however, it’s commonplace. Tom and Dave said it doesn’t bother them at all. Tom said he’s seen a few guys destroy their racquets out of frustration which he finds silly. Someone who breaks their tennis racquet just wasted several hundred dollars.

3. Yelling at oneself out of frustration

Carolyn has played many singles and had opponents yell at themselves out of frustration. She finds it awkward because sometimes she can’t tell if they are yelling at themselves or trying to say something to her. Carolyn played a woman (we’ll say her name is Sarah) and she kept calling herself stupid. Now, when we talk about Sarah, we call her “Stupid Sarah.”

4. Throwing the balls over to the other side of the court vs. handing them over

We all agreed that throwing the balls to the other side of the court without handing them to an opponent is annoying. But… things have changed in the age of the pandemic. Tom and Erin said they used to think it was rude for players to leave the tennis balls on the ground for opponents to pick up when changing sides. Now thing think it’s better. If balls are left on the ground, there’s no physical contact with your opponents. The thing we all agreed was, however, was when an opponent throws the balls over to your side of the court when you’re not looking.

5. When an opponent goes to retrieve a ball slowly and you feel like it’s strategy

This definitely falls under the category “annoying situations on the court”! Sometimes people are slow by nature but often they are slow to retrieve a ball as a strategy to delay a game or match. This is frustrating! Tom thinks if you have two balls to play with, don’t take the time to get the third ball if it slows the game down.

6. Taking too long to serve

While Carolyn is annoyed at people that take too long to serve, Dave is more annoyed at someone that serves fast. All tennis players have their serving routine but being way too fast or way too slow is probably annoying to most rec tennis players.

7. Cheering when someone gets hit with a tennis ball. A new low!

Carolyn has been hit with a ball in a match and could hear people on the sidelines cheering for the team that won the point because she got hit. That’s a new low in adult recreational tennis. Most players apologize when they hit someone but occasionally there’s a match where someone doesn’t understand good manners in adult recreational tennis.

Thank you for listening to “Annoying Situations on the Tennis Court – Part Two”. We talked about several other annoying things, but you’ll have to listen to the whole episode to hear them! We hope you enjoy it and will send us things that annoy you as well. We’re sure we could record endless episodes about this topic!

Some situations could be avoided if more tennis players understand the rules. Some weird things — not necessarily annoying — that happen on the court can be found in Rebel Good’s column called “Stump the Ump“. We think you’ll enjoy reading it!

Tom and Dave have joined us for several episodes. If you’d like to hear more from them, click here:

• Annoying Situations on the Court – Part One
• How To Choose A Tennis Partner
• Bad Weather and Short Sets at States
• Bad Weather and Short Sets at States – Part Two

The post Ep. 311: Annoying Situations on the Court – Part Two appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Tom and Dave are with us to discuss what they find annoying. We have figured out quickly by interviewing so many people on the podcast that what is considered annoying in women’s tennis matches may not be when playing men’s tennis.

The guys have played tennis together as doubles partners for several years. They have been to playoffs and various NC state tournaments many times. Tom and Dave have had their fair share of annoying situations on the court. They agreed that sometimes their opponents can be annoying but often times their partner can too!

Tom and Dave said most times, men can play a tennis match and then enjoy a beer afterwards together, Women can’t seem to do that. We hold grudges against people that we find annoying!

Have you ever had someone tell you their life story while playing tennis?

We agreed that a lot of players like to talk about their lives but Tom and Carolyn mostly get annoyed when this happens. They don’t want to hear about someone’s kids or grandkids while they are playing. They don’t mind talking after a match and getting to know someone but find it distracting and annoying when it’s done during a match. A lot of recreational tennis players do this — especially in women’s tennis. Erin never really minds someone talking to her during matches unless she feels like it’s a strategy.

Tennis Players Are Mostly Genuine

The four of us agree that most tennis players are genuine people and don’t mean to be annoying. We all feel like nice people far outweigh the annoying ones. But… since all recreational tennis players come across annoying opponents sometimes, we have a part two to this episode coming up next week. There are endless stores that can be told about annoying situations on a tennis court so there are lots of things to discuss

Tom and Dave have joined us for several episodes. If you’d like to hear more from them, click here:

• How To Choose A Tennis Partner
• Bad Weather and Short Sets at States
• Bad Weather and Short Sets at States – Part Two

If you’d like to read about adult recreational tennis rules found in Friend at Court, click here.

The post Ep. 310: Annoying Situations on the Court – Part One appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Hear the stories and tell us your best practices!

Here’s a full transcript of our conversation with Gin regarding forfeits and captains’ dilemmas

Carolyn: 0:06
Hi, this is Carolyn, and I’m here with Erin. And we appreciate Gin coming back on the podcast to discuss forfeiting courts, whether you should do it early, whether you should wait, whether it depends on the situation. Gin started off as a 3-5 and was so good, she has now been bumped to a 5-0. So, Erin, do you want to start us off and tell us about your situation?

Erin: 0:28
Yeah, I’ll start us, and we’re gonna talk about the most recent and the reason why this came up. We’re gonna talk about the most recent time that this happened to us, and which is why Gin is becoming our regular, which I love. Um we wrote lots of notes down when we were at States recently. Our both our 8.5, 18 over and 40 over uh 8.5 combo teams went to states at the same time, same weekend. We had the exact same schedules. We were, you know, sending people all over to different courts and it was, you know, just a lot going on. But something, a really interesting situation happened, um, which is what spurred this conversation. We got a phone call before our very first match on the very first day of the tournament. And the captain who we were facing, the opposing team, the captain called and said that she was forfeiting a court. Not, I think I’m going to forfeit, I’m for I’m having to forfeit a court. One of her players had an emergency. She had to turn around and go back to Raleigh. And so then I started scrambling, and we had all a house full of people. Um, there was like, I don’t know, eight or ten of us in house. And I was like, okay, Jin, you text so-and-so that’s on her way here, and and and someone else was doing something, you know. So we were all kind of scrambling because we had to let our first we had to figure out which line we were gonna get basically take a forfeit win for because they were forfeiting a line. So we had to like decide that based on who was there and who was coming. You know, there was just it was a lot of logistics. So like three of us, I felt like we’re running all over the house, you know, in different directions. And I also, we actually heard from that captain through another player of ours. And me as the captain, I wanted to talk directly to her, which that’s one of the things that we’ll talk about because she clearly said, I have to forfeit a court. And she was nice enough to do it because we were, it was about three hours from our house, two, two to three hours. Um, and it was like an 11 a.m. match. So we didn’t necessarily have to stay there overnight. Like people were on their way there from Raleigh. And so she was nice enough to reach out and say, hey, I’m forfeiting court. One of my players had an emergency. We don’t have enough to field three courts. So this is three courts of doubles. But I wanted to speak to her directly because I wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth. Because I have had a different situation, which we’ll talk about too, happen to me and it backfired on me. So I was like, I’m gonna contact her directly and I’m gonna speak to her. So I’m gonna let Jin take over. But what happened was we showed up at the courts and Jin was sitting at a table. You got there before me. Yeah. And I think I went up to her and I said something. I was trying to try to tell someone the other day. Uh, I walked up to her and I think I said something like, Hey, no matter what happens, like smile or, you know, it was just like a, I don’t know, I it was some sort of advice, but she kind of looked at me and was like, gave me the eyes, like, oh, there’s this lady sitting at my table, and she’s like kind of gesturing. And I was like, Well, that was the woman who I talked to. And so she was like, Hey, let’s go talk out in the parking lot. And so we walked out, and then I’m gonna let Gin take over. But what ended up happening was she could field enough quartz.

Gin: 3:15
Well, she’s we were sitting at the table. Uh, she is from our area, local area, so we did not know each other before that day, but you know, we were friendly, know a lot of the same people, you know. So we were just chatting and um and she kind of I guess she had let us know that a how long before the match, an hour, hour and a half before when you guys were sitting at the time. When she had initially two or three. But then maybe now it’s only like 30 minutes before the match, she said, you know what? I I actually might be able to field the three lines. Can you guys do that? And I kind of was like, Yeah, we were like, What? Uh um, and so you know, Erin and I then were scrambling and trying to figure out like what do we do? You know, this is states, like we want the win, like, but we also, you know, like if she can field the lines, like could we scramble and you know, make it happen? And in the end, you know, we couldn’t. Our our players were um, you know, too far flung and and not in their right clothes, watching husbands’ matches, different things. And she did stand by what she had told us and did not he she did forfeit a line, but what we was honest, she was she was honest. And it wouldn’t have been I don’t know that I would go so far as to say it would be dishonest had she not, but what she could have done is said, hey guys, I had someone able to come. I can fill those filled those three lines. I am going to put them in. And and she could have done that. And you know, at states, you put those lines in that system. And if we couldn’t fill three lines, we would have had to forfeit. So the lesson here is even if they say they’re gonna forfeit, you probably should have a backup plan. Because I mean, you know, this could be a gamesmanship thing. I mean, you know, you could if someone was and and we know those people are out there, you know, you could do that. You could say, hey, we’re gonna forfeit a line, and then be like, oh, just kidding.

Erin: 4:55
Oh, just kidding, we aren’t, we were actually here.

Gin: 4:57
You if you have to be ready to play those lines at at states.

Carolyn: 5:01
Wait a second. This doesn’t make any sense to me.

Erin: 5:03
Yeah, because I want to talk about a local situation too. Yeah.

Carolyn: 5:06
If Erin had a text from the other captain saying, I need to forfeit this line, and then all of a sudden that captain changes 30 minutes before the match and said, Never mind, I don’t need to forfeit. The rule is Erin, too bad, so sad for Erin.

Erin: 5:24
Basically. So the reason why again this topic came up was we uh we happen to have on our team, our local, our local league coordinator is on our team. She’s a she’s a four, four, five, just got bumped to five. Oh, so shout out to her. But she, I think you consulted with her, Jin, and was like, what do we do? Because we also had the funny part of that. This is we had three captains that weekend. We had Jin and myself, and then our friend Jill, because we had two teams going. And we all had three different opinions. It was really funny. I think, you know, one was like, no way, we got the four, you know, she forfeited, and there’s and I was just like, I don’t know what you know, what’s the right thing to do? And then the other captain was like, it’s just tennis, let’s just play the line. So it was funny because even between the three of us, you know, we were like, what do we do? So Jin was smart, and you know, instead of just emotionally thinking about it like me, which I was like, well, you know, what’s you know, what’s the right thing for everybody to do? She was like, Well, let’s ask, you know, let’s ask the coordinator. And so she did say, like, she could have walked up and said, I’m putting in three lines.

Gin: 6:23
Like, if you don’t have three where she said was it doesn’t really matter what anybody said before, it matters what’s entered with that entered in the enter.

Carolyn: 6:31
And this is North Carolina, so every state may be different. Yeah. So this is just for North Carolina that this happened, but I would like to know how it works in other states, or if anybody else listening across the country has had this similar issue and it, you know, maybe somebody wasn’t honest afterwards, right? And said, you know, actually, I never said that to her. Yes.

Erin: 6:51
Yeah. And I didn’t have it in a text. I mean, I guess, you know, Carolyn, your question was, well, what if you have it in, you know, I think someone probably would have stuck by that, even a site coordinator at states. You don’t think so, Gin? She’s making a face like she’s not sure.

Gin: 7:04
I kind of think, and I felt like what that coordinator was telling me, um, is I think all that matters is what gets entered in that line. And and, you know, you enter three lines and they don’t have three lines to answer back with.

Erin: 7:16
And yeah. The problem too is um, once we knew, because it was two to three hours ahead of time, once we knew and we decided which line it was going to be, those those players let their guard down. They were like, they didn’t eat the same breakfast that they would have normally eaten. They didn’t have, you know, even if they had their tennis bag in their car, they were in flip-flops, like there was a lot going on. One was driving in, you know, she could have stopped and gotten an extra cup of coffee and ended up being late. You know, whatever the situation is, they really were like, we’re not playing. They weren’t in, you know, killer competition mode. And so even if we had been able to, I still felt like, which we couldn’t. I think I don’t know if I said that, but we couldn’t end up. I mean, and she was like, I’ll stick by what I said because I was like, I got people at other courts. Like one, like Gin said, one was watching her husband because he was also at states. One was just taking her sweet time to get there because she wasn’t playing again until the next day. So she was coming in for that match and then staying overnight with us and then not playing again. So she was just like, you know, not she wasn’t even answering our texts at that point. She was just taking her own sweet time, you know.

Carolyn: 8:21
So what would you suggest doing if that happened again? Would you then tell this them to text the state coordinator or someone at the tournament to say, hey, let them know that this is being forfeited so that everybody’s on the same page?

Erin: 8:35
That’s actually, I hadn’t thought about that, but that’s probably a very good idea. But um, I think what Jin said too was you gotta be ready. Like even if someone says, and but I think what Jin said too was the language should be, I may have to forfeit, just to prepare you. So I’ll go to our local. Um this happened years and years ago um when I was a three-five, but I was a captain of a team and I did the same thing, but this was at the local league. And I will tell you one caveat to the state of North Carolina is if you can’t field a court, if you forfeit a court, you pay $100. It’s basically a fine for not being able to get at the state tournament. At the state tournament. Or the state championships. State championship. You literally have to give them $100. In fact, our whole team, when we were doing lineups before we left, was like, what if one of our players gets hurt or can’t show or whatever? We decided that there was like, I don’t know, 18 of us or 16 or something. And we were like, okay, everybody has to throw in seven dollars to forfeit a court. Like we did the math ahead of time, but yeah. Um, so that that is, you know, one big difference. So I think lesson learned in the future, I would not, I would, I would do it right there on site, and that kind of stinks. Um, but you know, that’s just the way it is.

Gin: 9:42
So but I think I think, you know, if that happened to us again where someone else said we’re gonna forfeit a court, I think I would go up to the desk and say, this team has told us they’re forfeiting a court. And what is what how is that official? When is that official? You know, ask that official question. And is it is it not official until they’ve entered it into the you know, line forfeit, or or if they come up here now and verify that is that, you know, I I would I would find out from whatever official body you are governed by there um when the moment is that that is kind of legal, because until that moment, you gotta be prepared to play.

Erin: 10:17
Yeah. I think that’s the moment, big lesson learned for us. So, but um, so there was a local um um situation that happened a long time ago. And I did what I thought was the nice thing. I let the um opposing captain know, same, same as this one did for me, you know, early in the morning, like two or three hours ahead of time, because I didn’t want someone to go, you know, people may play daytime tennis, but they’re still working or they got kids to take take care of. I mean, nobody wants anybody’s time wasted. Um, and so I didn’t want to do it at match time when everybody was already there, had their big breakfast, you know, ready to go. So I reached out to her and I just said, hey, I’m gonna have to forfeit a line. And I specifically said I’m gonna forfeit a singles court because I only had one player out. So I wasn’t gonna do a doubles court, right? So then I got there, we all got there and we were warming up, and one of my other players didn’t show up. Not the one that we had to forfeit, but someone just got their days mixed up. So then I was down two players. So had I not done anything, what ended up happening was because I verbally told her I was forfeiting a singles line, what I wanted to do is I wanted to reshuffle things. So I wanted to play two singles and two doubles because it was a five court match. And so that would have given me my team a better chance playing more courts, you know, you have to win three out of five. So I thought, well, if we can play four, our, you know, mathematically our chances are better to win the match. Right. And she said, absolutely not. You have already forfeited a singles court. So what was happening was once I had one other player out, all I could do was field three doubles lines, you know, and so we had to win all of them to win the match, which was, you know, scary going into it. That’s a lot of pressure when you know every single line has to win.

Gin: 11:55
And in fairness to her, she probably had the singles player not come not show up. And so personnel would be different, you know. Exactly. And so I I, you know, I hate that she did that and told you, no, absolutely not, but I kind of get it. Yeah, you know, I do too now that I say it. Yeah, you know, you I mean, we think about our teams and we know who if we had, you know, left a singles player home and then we’ve got people who are like they can’t play together or whatever it is, you know. So I I kind of get so I think our our takeaway is I think it’s it’s such a dilemma, right? Do you just not say anything and let these people come out and you know forfeit at the moment? I mean, that’s gonna really make them mad. Um, but I think what I would do in in this situation is let the other captain know, hey, weird things have happened, so I can’t officially tell you this yet, but I think I am going to have to forfeit a singles line today. Um, but you know, I’ve had the strange things happen where that shifted. So I I I really am gonna have to wait until game time, but I do want to let you know that just in case, you know, someone on your team is, you know, has something super important they’re missing or something like that, and you want to have a different backup player, you know, come. I I do strongly think, you know, that this is what’s gonna happen. But yeah, I think you kind of gotta hold that official word.

Erin: 13:09
Almost disagree with you, which is weird because I almost never do. But um, first of all, you know who would never think about this and do it at game time? Men. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like, we could talk about this for 20 more minutes, but you know who they would show up and be like, sorry, dude. Yeah. Not, you know, I mean, they could forfeit the whole match and be like, sorry, dude, and then have a beer, right? Um, but I did have one other kind of cute story. Um, I felt really terrible because at match time I forfeited a court locally and I felt bad. I went up to the captain and I said, Oh my gosh, I am so sorry. One of my players was sick this morning, but she said, I’m gonna be there. Well, she ended up falling back asleep and like she was ended up, she probably would have been useless anyway. But she was really trying to be there because she was being a team player, but she literally turned her alarm off and didn’t wake up. And so she never showed and I had to forfeit. So I go up to the opposing captain, I’m like, here’s our lineup. I’m really sorry, we’re gonna forfeit, you know, doubles three or whatever. And she she saw how distraught I was and how bad I felt. She was like, girl, let’s hug it out. And she literally gave me a hug. And I’ll never forget that. But I was like, you won’t get that from a lot of captains. I mean, I might do that because I’m like, yeah, that’s a win for us already, right? But I would still even feel bad for our players like that showed up, you know? But yeah, we need to be a little more like guys, I think is the whole, right? What would your husband do, Carolyn, in this situation? Oh, I don’t know. I mean he wouldn’t care.

Carolyn: 14:32
I don’t think he would. Yeah, he’d probably just sit there and chat. I don’t care.

Gin: 14:37
I feel like men forfeit courts all the time regular seasons. Because they don’t plan anything. I guess. Is that it? Yes, I’ve been on mixed teams and you know, and and or teams that men are captaining and is so different. Yeah. They don’t, I mean, it’s like the night before you’re trying to figure out. Um, or or friends of mine are on men’s teams, and so I’ll watch the interactions and they are literally texting like that morning, hey, are we are you know, hey, are we playing today? Yeah, we’re playing tonight. Or you what was your, you know, I mean, it’s are you a little last minute?

Carolyn: 15:05
It’s or you know what I’ve noticed with men is that they’re willing to reschedule. Yes. Versus I’ve I’ve even had to fill in as a captain just a few times because you know how I feel about captaining teams. It’s like the worst non-pay job ever, sometimes. I mean, I love captains and anyone willing to do it, um, I think it’s great. But uh, I was trying to say, hey, they’re not available today, they’re available the the rest of the week. Is there any way your player can play the rest of the week? And the answer back was, we’ll be at the courts tomorrow. Exactly. And there was like not even a response to that. And so I just kind of thought that was funny. Yeah. I was like, oh, okay.

Erin: 15:44
We um not to say one other story, but I did just think of something else. Um, I uh again, a long time ago, at the beginning of our season, we knew that we couldn’t field um a match during it was like the week of Memorial Day. And we knew it from day one. We actually have the rules have changed in our area now because situations like this that I’m gonna say has happened too many times and too many people got upset. The rule now is if you have a um match scheduled during like Easter or Mother’s Day or, you know, some holiday, our local league now will say, hey, reschedule those matches if, you know, if if even one team can’t field. Like it used to be that you had to get the other captain to agree to it. And so we knew at the very beginning of the season, which is in March for us, that in May we were not going to be able to field for a certain week. Everybody was out of town, you know, going to the beach, whatever. And at the time we were not allowed to reschedule unless both captains agreed. And that captain stuck by it for two months. I would just like, hey, have you changed your mind? We’re really trying to work with you. Could we play it early? Could we just absolutely not? And so the lead local lead coordinator here said, You have to show up that morning and forfeit on site because if she doesn’t bring her entire team out, you could potentially get the win. So, did you? Her whole team was there. She was having a practice. I marched out on that court and I was like, Well, I’m here in person to forfeit my courts. And she was like, Thank you. You should see how I feel about her when I run into her at the grocery store.

Gin: 17:11
She really wanted that win.

Carolyn: 17:14
Wait, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. So even if someone says to you ahead of time, we’re gonna forfeit, even locally, let’s say, or is it different at the local level versus the state championship?

Erin: 17:28
Everyone’s different, but that’s what we want to know.

Carolyn: 17:30
But at our at our like every place is is different. Um, just because I think it’s you know, it’s so nice, you know, for people to forfeit ahead. You want to encourage people to forfeit ahead of time. And that makes it so that there’s there’s no benefit to forfeiting ahead, like other than, you know, like I just don’t understand why if if a captain says they’re gonna forfeit, that’s it.

Erin: 17:55
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of what Rebel has talked to you and I about a lot, Carolyn, about rules. And he says, you know, this is a game of courtesy. And so I think we even take it to that degree, right? Like we want to be courteous of people’s time and not to have them get out to courts and then not be able to play, but it will backfire on you. It can backfire on you.

Gin: 18:15
I think that I would be curious, and I hate to bring up something that maybe we don’t know the answer to, but I think at states, it’s that’s clear. I think it is what’s put in the lineup. That’s my understanding. And and like Carolyn said, I think, well, and like Carolyn said, I’d love to know if other states are different or but that seems to be for us like that’s a clear, it’s it’s in the app, that’s what matters. But at a local level, you know, when a lot of it is done through word of mouth and um, you know, like makeup matches, for example, you know, you do like if you have agreed to play on Tuesday at this court at this time and someone doesn’t show up, there’s no app that’s put in. So that is a word of mouth communication mechanism, you know, um, apparatus for organizing matches. And so I kind of think it would be different with a local if someone forfeited in a text and you could say, hey, here’s the text. You know, Jane texted me the other day and said we won’t have three lines, you know, four lines there, and so we didn’t bring four lines. I think that would be a good thing.

Erin: 19:12
I think if you have evidence like that, that’s my that would be my guess. That that just seems like common sense, you know.

Carolyn: 19:18
But so I think it is different at states versus at yeah, but I’m thinking if Gin texted me, I think people may not be able to show up, but you’re not willing to forfeit until you get there. You know, it’s still You’re still a jerk.

Erin: 19:35
Yeah.

Carolyn: 19:35
You’re still a jerk.

Erin: 19:36
You’re still a jerk.

Gin: 19:38
I guess yes. Except I guess the only argument is like, let’s say that like it was a match that you know, uh like that you were pulling your somebody was like really bending over backwards, missing a kid’s super important doctor’s appointment to be at this match because it really mattered to the team and they really and you were kind of like, all right, we trust that I trust that Carolyn’s being honest. She thinks she’s gonna find But I guess she wants to wait. So we’re gonna actually tell this superstar player, go on to your kid’s appointment. We’re gonna have this other player come just in case. Um but I guess there’s always the chance that it’s gamesmanship. I don’t know. I don’t know the right answers. I know. It’s hard. It’s like being nice can sort of bite you.

Erin: 20:16
It does backfire. Yes. Like Carolyn said, yeah. I mean, I’ve you know, I’ve reached out to clubs. Clubs have reached out to us and said, hey, we can’t, you know, play all three, but can we play one tomorrow or can we play one ahead of time? And we go, I mean, yeah, it’s just tennis, right? We always say it’s just tennis, we’re not getting paid. We use that word daily. And then when you ask that same team or that same club for a favor, nope. Absolutely not. Match time is match time. Exactly. That is very true.

Carolyn: 20:54
And he said yes, that that would be a waste of his time. But let us know if you’ve had any interesting forfeiting situations or any advice for forfeiting courts. You can message us on our socials or our website, which is secondserv podcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.

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The post Ep. 309: Forfeit or Fight – Captains’ Dilemma appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Alex has been a tennis content creator for over a decade, is a PTR certified coach, and provides brand marketing and social media consulting. In addition, he worked at USTA Mid-Atlantic for 13 years.

You can learn more about Alex or contact him at the following: 

Website: www.alexchantennis.com

Media Kit: Click Here

Socials: Instagram | Amazon | TikTok | LinkedIn

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A Transcript of our Conversation with Alex Chan About Tennis Content Creation

Carolyn: 0:07
Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin. And this is part two of our episode with Alex Chan. Alex worked for USTA Mid-Atlantic. He’s a coach and he’s also a tennis content creator. If you want to learn more about his background and how he became a tennis content creator, please go back and check out part one. But here is part two.

Erin: 0:27
We’re now starting to, you know, do the types of stuff that you do and grow an audience. But how have you been successful at growing that audience? Is it just because you were in the space so early? Is it your stuff is just, are you going viral?

Carolyn: 0:39
Like, you know, is it because you’re likable?

Erin: 0:41
I mean you’re super.

Alex: 0:42
What was that? Um I mean, I would say like uh just being a space for a while. I I wouldn’t say that’s a benefit, actually, because I you know I have grown audience, but like uh you know, over time people just your accounts they they drop out, they become become inactive. So like I think there was a period of time where I was like, okay, I feel like my engagement could be stronger, but it’s not matching what I’m thinking. I think it’s because of that. And unfortunately, like the algorithm sometimes will misinterpret that, say, oh, people are not engaged, whatnot. So it does, it took some time to kind of really rebuild it. Especially there was I think there was one year where I did take a relatively longer break from social media. And again, that doesn’t, yeah, generally speaking, algorithms don’t like it when you take a take a break, right? Um so yeah, so that’s obviously that’s a benefit. Uh, but yeah, I would say being consistent. I always tell people like if they want to be a good content creator, uh if nothing else, just be consistent in posting so that you’re not just training your audience, but you train the algorithm. Also, you’re helping yourself too, because just like in tennis, the more repetitions you have, the better you get at what you do, right? So I try to lay it back to tennis people that are in the space, like and they get it, they understand, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So like where I see a lot of downfall is people that they’re really interested and they um for some reason they just can’t post. They don’t want to, or not they don’t want to, but like they have so much uh like nervousness or fears, anxiety, yeah. Anxiety.

Erin: 2:01
Yeah. You know, we tried to be we try to be really good about our sound, which I’m very proud of us. We are, but I think at one point Carolyn was like, we just we we have to throw episodes out there, and we have built, you know, over five years, like so many episodes and such a good following for the podcast, you know, and we’re really proud of that. But um, I see people’s numbers sometimes on social media, and I’m like, are those like you know, and you know, Alex, there’s a bunch of people out there that are like, I’ll grow your audience for you. It’s like, are those bots don’t ever do that? Yeah, I know. No, we we never would, honestly.

Alex: 2:31
Yeah, you know, I just said for people that are watching, don’t ever get tempted by that. It’s just I will say that one one benefit like uh now on Instagram, like that’s another trend right now in 2025, is that yes, followers do matter in many ways, but it is becoming less relevant for your success. It’s more about the uh engagement on your posts, and uh you can have you know you can have less followers, but like and tremendous uh engagement on your posts, and you can be very successful. So like I I would not necessarily put too much um yeah, I wouldn’t too much be too much focused on follower counts necessarily. It can help, yes, it does look good if you have 10k followers versus 500, but uh it’s more about the content you put out there and is it reaching the target audience? You know, I’ve talked to some people where like um you you can have a very specific niche, and but you might be the only person that is talking about this very specific niche. And I say specific niche, I’m I’ll give an example. I’ll I want to shout out uh uh play tennis practice yoga, for example. Uh so Margaret, so she has a somewhat pretty specific niche. Like she is a tennis coach, but she also specialized in yoga as well. So I told her before, like, yeah, like they’re not, I mean, how many off top of your head, like how many people you know are like experts in both of this space? So she actually, even though like she has access to potential brand deals and partnerships that people that have you know three, four, five, six times her following would not necessarily have access to. And that’s what she could uh sell herself essentially, yeah, is this aspect. So I feel that’s why right now there’s a lot of opportunities for uh tennis people that are not yet content creators. Um, there is a lot of opportunities out there that they can help grow their business but by posting uh good content that will bring bring value to their audience. Uh that’s why I said it’s not too light. Yeah, you can you can have a very small, relatively small following, but it can actually reach your goals as a as a coach by putting stuff out there.

Erin: 4:27
Can you tell us about trends and best practices for content creation?

Alex: 4:31
Yeah, uh right now, I said there’s a lot of opportunities out there. I’m gonna say, let’s I want to focus on let’s say Instagram, for example. Uh you find a lot of times uh things that are happening in TikTok, like a few months later, those trends come to Instagram. There was a point where like just talking head videos were not a thing on Instagram and then became now people can just talk, and that’s great. It used to be a thing where you have to use a training audio in order for your pay your post to blow up, and now that’s not the case. You can make original audio and it can still be great. Uh so there’s a lot of opportunity where you can do like longer form content essentially. Uh it used to be like it used to be post like less than 10 second videos, and that’s the you have a higher chance of that blowing up. But now it’s not necessarily it’s not necessarily that. It’s uh it go back to what what value does your content bring to your audience? Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Nowadays, if you want to have like the best chance of really growing your page, you have to kind of combine like multiple elements to your to your content. Like it should it should it should be like for example, yes, educational content could still be valuable, but now it’s more so education and entertainment. You have to make sure that that is engaging for it to blow up. You know, nowadays it used to be like uh like hooks, for example. Initial hooks, uh, that’s very important nowadays. So that’s a trend. Like the first few seconds, you really have to get them to stay and watch the video. So it used to be it’s just one type of hook that you could use. Now it’s probably better practice to use two or three if you can. There is the uh the visual hook, the audio hook, and the text hook. Uh so the visual hook is you know what what you’re showing the video, so like I don’t know, it’s like I don’t know, something exploding in my background. Okay, that that that would that would that would hook you, right? There could be like uh the text above my head or something that that tells like you know what the video might be about. It kind of teases it. That’s a text hook, and then what I’m saying or the sound that you hear from the video is the audio hook. So if you can, you we want to find a like like do two or three of those if you can. And yeah, that’s and then it does again, it takes practice. Like sometimes uh yeah, you have to that’s why it goes back to what I was saying, you have to post uh often, regularly, because you start you start learning what works for your audience, what worked with the algorithm. And then when you find something that does click, you want to double down on that. The best creators will, once they find something, they will double down on that format and keep on pumping out content. I mean, they’re they’re all different content, but there’s like it’s like a similar like template. They find a way to template their their winning formula and do it over and over again. And then their audience are trained to like, okay, expect that too, so like which is good. Um I guess one other quick uh uh actually not shout out, but like another trend I’m seeing is like LinkedIn. I’m seeing that becoming more and more uh prominent of a platform for uh for content creators. Really? A lot of people sleep on it, but they’re gonna be able to do it.

Carolyn: 7:25
Okay, yeah. I haven’t even thought of LinkedIn. Are you seeing Pinterest Pinterest too as well?

Alex: 7:30
Pinterest that’s always also actually, yeah. I mean, that’s continues to be a thing. Like there one uh aspect of Pinterest is that a lot of the content you post there is evergreen, and uh, you can people can search it on Google and so forth. So there for some people, yeah, that that would actually make a lot of sense to be there as well. But talk more about LinkedIn.

Erin: 7:48
Tell us more about LinkedIn too.

Alex: 7:49
I I interrupted. That’s a platform where uh they are pushing out more like kind of public content from from people that are on there. It used to be very much like kind of private, it’s kind of almost like the the the uh what’s it called, the the boring, I don’t know, social media is like, oh that’s what professionals ever do. But now uh yeah, I mean think about it. A lot of professionals are there. I mean, you’re a lot of people have great knowledge or great experience that they can share and they put it out there. And what I would say, what LinkedIn does a great job at is uh notifying you of content that is being engaged by other people that are in your network, and then so it actually has a good job at actually really connecting you to a lot of people that would be relevant for the content or for your for your business in general. And then they’re also now doing video content too. So the video is starting to pop up more on uh LinkedIn. But for people that are not as comfortable with videos, like just text posts, are growing people’s page and growing people’s influence in the in the space. So I would highly recommend to the people and want they should definitely use that as an opportunity to grow.

Carolyn: 8:49
Yeah, and I haven’t looked at my LinkedIn profile in years. So that’s the first thing I’m gonna do, Alex. I’m gonna let you know if and then putting out the podcast to LinkedIn too. And that’s a great point. Right.

Alex: 8:59
And then the benefit of that too is the people that you know engage in your content. I mean, there’s a fairly easy way to see what their what their background is and who they are. You know, you can’t wait to see that on LinkedIn. Oh no, no, no, on Instagram, sorry. You can’t really see like people follow you, like yeah. So then they’re they’re private or or like they don’t really show their face on their but on on LinkedIn, yeah, yeah. Most time you will see their face. And mostly usually you will find their title and then oh yeah, this this guy, this person is uh, I don’t know, the uh the the president of this brand or something. This this person does XY, you know, that it makes it easier for networking, you know. So uh that’s a lot of opportunity. You know, if you look if you look for sponsors, that’s that’s another way you can go in and look at go there.

Carolyn: 9:38
Well, Alex, since you have played, can you tell us your most memorable moment or craziest moment on the court?

Alex: 9:45
Oh yeah. Um well so we so I I actually have a I guess a different answer for that. Not necessarily me playing, but I do have mem a very memorable moment uh on court. So it’s actually when I was working at USTA and there was this big event that it was a it was like this event is probably the most like uh uh physical, I would say, the most physical work I had to do, but also very rewarding. Essentially, every hour there was like a there’s like three or four groups of kids that funnel into like these uh like two like uh what’s a youth-sized tennis course, let’s say that there’s like so there’s like uh every hour there was like it could be hundreds of kids like they’re coming through this this area. And I was constantly there um running drills for like hours on end. It was it was from like what eight or seven or eight a.m. till like four or five p.m. that whole day. Right? I got I got a little break, but it was it was very grueling. But uh at one point, I remember that the first time I did this event, uh, I was still kind of figuring out what was going on, and uh at one point kids stopped coming in. I’m like, okay, that’s weird. Uh but the other kids that were on court, they stayed there. And I didn’t know what was going on. So now I’m gonna spoil you a little bit. This event was the White House Easter egg roll. So I was helping out at yeah, at the White House, right? And then the reason why they closed off the kids from coming in was because a special guest was coming through to play tennis on court, and that was at that time it was uh President uh Barack Obama that came in. And so I was at this, yeah. So I did the White House Easter egg roll like uh four times, and each time he he actually showed up. It was like his like second term. So he showed up every every year and hit with like some of the like the tennis pros. Like I say tennis pros, I mean like Caroline Wasniaki was there, like Francis Teafo was there. There’s actually some people that were there, like that were serious players. So he came in and he also hit with the kids. Uh but that was a very unique type of experience.

Carolyn: 11:36
Is he good at tennis?

Alex: 11:37
He’s actually decent. Yeah, he’s pretty decent. He’s just good at sports. Yeah, he’s decent uh playing, so he was rallying and everything. So very charismatic, um, for sure. Uh so yeah.

Erin: 11:48
That is impressive because sometimes I can’t rally and I’ve been playing for a long time.

Alex: 11:51
Yeah.

Erin: 11:51
I know, right?

Alex: 11:52
Yeah.

Carolyn: 11:54
Thanks again to Alex for coming on the podcast. We’ve included Alex’s contact information in our show notes, and we hope you follow him on Instagram, which is at AlexChantennis. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the courts soon.

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The post Ep. 308: Tennis Content Creation with Alex Chan (Part Two) appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.

Alex has been a tennis content creator for over a decade, is a PTR certified coach, and provides brand marketing and social media consulting. In addition, he worked at USTA Mid-Atlantic for 13 years.

You can learn more about Alex or contact him at the following: 

Website: www.alexchantennis.com

Media Kit: Click Here

Socials: Instagram | Amazon | TikTok | LinkedIn

We would greatly appreciate a 5 star rating wherever you listen to podcasts!

A Transcript of our Conversation with Alex Chan About Tennis Content Creation

Carolyn: 0:07
Hi, this is Carolyn and I’m here with Erin and we’re really excited to have Alex Chan here with us. Alex worked 13 years at USTA Mid-Atlantic. He is a PTR certified coach and has been a tennis content creator for over a decade. So thank you so much, Alex, for coming on the podcast.

Alex: 0:25
Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this.

Carolyn: 0:27
And Erin, you met Alex first.

Erin: 0:29
How did you meet Alex? I did. I met Alex at the US Open. Alex, do you even remember this? I remember two years ago, I think. Yep. I was a little fangirling. I might have told you that. I’m pretty open and honest with people as soon as I meet him. But I was like, oh my God, I watch you on Instagram all the time. And I love your reels and all your content. So I’m glad two years later we’ve been able to get this together.

Alex: 0:48
No, I appreciate you came up uh to me. It was at breakfast.

Erin: 0:51
Yes, we were at breakfast, and I was like, oh my God, I think that’s Alex over there that I like that I watch on you on uh on Instagram. So yeah, I’m glad I worked out. Yeah, me as well.

Carolyn: 1:01
Okay, so Alex, can you start off and tell us a little bit about your tennis background?

Alex: 1:05
Yeah. Um, I can start from the beginning. So, like how I started. I started relatively late. I started in high school, and the story I always tell is that um my friend from uh math class came in one day and was like, like kind of like in a panic, saying, We need to find like a few more guys to join our tennis team, or else we’re gonna forfeit our match this week. So that’s how I originally joined uh the tennis world, and I ended up uh loving it from there. Um, you know, my team wasn’t that great, but we had fun. Uh and then we uh I guess I later on I went to college at UMBC in uh in Maryland, and there I started the club tennis program or the tennis on campus program there. That’s how I originally got connected with USTA. And then after college, I found my way into USTA. I worked at the May Atlantic section for like 13 years in various roles, uh, mostly in the community space and recreation space. And yeah, that’s kind of initial. Yeah, kind of just start off my background.

Erin: 2:02
So tell us um how you got started as a content creator. We’re super interested in that. Obviously, I think that’s pretty much what this whole episode is gonna be about. We’re gonna talk all tennis, but mostly about content creation and what the landscape looks like today. And I will say, because people may listen to this in 2027 or 2028, we’re in 2025 now. You know, we have 300 episodes that it will all be evergreen at some point. So, as of today’s landscape, tell us about how you got involved and then what it looks like today, because we know it’s ever evolving.

Alex: 2:31
Yeah. Uh well, I when you know I I was I came from a generation that also grew up on when the internet became a thing. So I’ve always been involved in social media in one shape or another. Uh so at the beginning, I was doing like blogging back in the day when people used to write stuff. So I was on a couple of blogging communities. Uh and I I’m not to go too deep too much in detail, but essentially that’s how I kind of got started. I started uh getting connected with uh people through that, to those communities. I I actually used to even uh set up in-person meetup groups for people from that online community, which wasn’t a thing really back then. Now, of course, it’s much much more commonplace, but back then it wasn’t really a thing. So uh then over time I started doing other stuff, and by that was not tennis-related, it was just like a general like blogging community, like blogging platform that I was doing. Uh, and then let’s say in 20, let’s say 2015, 2016, I started doing uh content on Instagram, and at the time it was mostly just pictures, and I wasn’t really doing it for uh grabbing a bigger audience necessarily. I was using that as just a place for me to put you know, just tennis pictures I’ve taken or or you know, events I’ve gone to in my USA career, just putting on there. Uh, you know, over time that kind of evolved. Uh you know, I started posting a little more often. I started getting a little more audience. Uh this is still like let’s say 2018, 19 or so. That’s early years.

Erin: 3:59
Yeah. Those are the early years, yeah.

Alex: 4:01
Exactly. Uh you know, that was also when I started you know getting reached out to by some brands for doing some collaborations. So I I at the time I was still mostly it was almost all gifted collaborations at that time. But I was like, okay, there’s a there’s something here at school, and I started meeting other people through Instagram, which was which was nice. Um 2020 it came and I had a bit more time that year. So I decided to uh experiment and do some more uh video content, and I got inspired a lot from TikTok. I noticed that on TikTok there was a lot more at the time, there’s a lot more trends of people doing uh like lift syncing videos to uh to songs and whatnot. And so I noticed like Were you doing dances?

Erin: 4:39
Are there gonna are we gonna find some dances of L.

Alex: 4:41
Actually, you might find some actually. Now I think about it. It wasn’t my main theme. I definitely did a few. Yeah, a few. So at that time, I I did notice in that landscape, I would say, of the tennis community on Instagram. There I saw a lot of what like you know, even even now there’s a lot of coaches that are that are making content on Instagram. There are you know a lot of uh high performance players that make content, and of course, there’s like all like good-looking people that are making content that are very popular. But at the time, I didn’t see as much like I would say like content that came from the recreation or community space, especially like more like kind of relabel content, which now in 2025 there’s there’s a ton of that, but back then there wasn’t as much. So I started borrowing uh ideas that I saw from other niches and putting a tennis spin to that, and that’s how I started to grow a bigger audience on Instagram at that time, and yeah, it kind of continued from there. So I really got more serious in like brand partnerships as well as consulting with other tennis creators and brands in the space to help the whole community get a little bit stronger. I would say that compared to other niches, we’re not we’re not as good as we could be. So I’m trying my best to raise the level of everyone.

Erin: 5:52
Yeah, that’s that’s um interesting that you say that. And two things tie in together. We also focus on the rec player, which most podcasts focus on pros. Um and they’re doing great, and we’re you know, we’re doing great too, but we do have a a a niche. Um, and so I love that we’re kind of in that same space. And we know that we cannot put a you actually can because you can coach, but Carolyn and I cannot put out a how-to video, how-to play tennis, but we can put out a how-to have fun playing tennis because we’re not getting your feelings hurt being on a team and not getting chosen to play.

Carolyn: 6:24
We can talk about that, but yeah, top spin, do not ask me. Right, right. Technique, strategy, mm-mm.

Erin: 6:31
Yeah.

Alex: 6:31
In many ways, very very similar here. Like, yes, I am certified uh as a coach, but there’s already, I see there’s already a lot of good coaches out there putting out this type of content. I I I I didn’t think that that was my the strength of all stuff that I could talk about. So that’s why I did focus more on the recreation space, more about, you know, instead of yeah, instead of teaching how to hit toss spin, I might teach her, hey, how like how often should you get your record should be stronger? Or something like that. More more things that are applicable to like uh the common uh recreation uh tennis player, which makes up the much the vast majority of tennis players in the world. Yeah so it makes sense that there should be more uh people speaking to that audience, not just the pro level.

Erin: 7:08
Oh, I love that. Yeah, and the other thing you said was um, and I’ve heard this from several content creators um in this in the same space that um were behind kind of in tennis. Um I don’t know if that’s a function of how old the sport is, how it’s you know traditionally been played. I don’t know what it is, but like I’m I’m hearing from other people like the NBA are killing it on content creators. And so speak to that.

Alex: 7:30
I can talk a little bit. I think it’s there’s two uh levels to that. So in that level, it’s I would say that’s more related to like professional tennis and how the uh the industry approaches content creators in that front. So like when they reference like the MBA, some sports they they really embrace content creators where they they invite them to come, they they do like behind-the-scene content, they can post whatever they want, essentially. They could post like you know, match you know, well not match play, but gameplay uh at the for that sport. Whereas in tennis, there it like there is more barriers, there’s more like red tape. So like you could go, you could be let’s say you could be invited to go to a tennis event uh as a content creator, which is amazing by the way. I’ve done that a couple of times, but then there are a lot of rules about you can’t show point play uh on court.

Carolyn: 8:18
Yeah, what you can’t? Yeah, I’ve heard that.

Alex: 8:21
When we think about it like I I kinda I guess I can almost understand why they might say that for like some maybe copyright or licensing whatever with uh TV or whatever, but at the same time, that’s what fans go to tennis events for is to watch the on court stuff. So it would be kind of weird to have a content creator go to a tennis event, but then you don’t sh you can’t really show too much of the tennis, right? So that’s still a a thing. And uh I mean tennis is not the only uh sports that’s like that. I think I was reading about I think it was like F1 was something similar where like they invited content creators, but then they even told them they can’t use F, they can’t even say F1 or something, or something like that. Like there was a lot of limitations to what they could do. So that’s one aspect where it’s still kind of being held back in the tennis world where that could be a little more open and it’ll be better for the the sport. So like I have to have to be more creative, I have to show some other aspects of the of the event. But yeah, that’s that was always like one thing that’s kind of uh a little odd. Um but that’s kind of one aspect. Luckily, my for my normal content, like for most of my content, I’m not usually in a uh professional tennis setting. Uh so the other aspect where I said like we’re kind of behind is just how brands approach creators, the partnership between creators. So this is something I do talk to a lot of people in the tennis community. And that’s that’s also why I set up a uh broadcast channel that’s aimed specifically for content creators in the tennis space, and also brands. Brands can also be in there as well. Uh but like I know it’s like I consume a lot of uh I can’t I it’s almost like uh the content creator niche. I actually follow other creators that just focus on this on this aspect. And I see how they talk about uh brand deals, they talk about like different let’s say like beauty or fashion or like other sports, and I know like there is a disconnect in how those partnerships usually uh go about versus how I often see in the tennis world. So just kind of just like some example, like yeah, I would say it’s still a thing where like oftentimes uh brands in the tennis space, they want to work with a creator, but they are very uh iffy about paying the creator for content. Uh and then there is a time and place where you know that may not make sense, or it may make more sense for just like gifts of collaboration or an affiliate uh collaboration. There are times that where that totally makes sense. So, like, for example, like yeah, like if a brand says they want to use your content for paid ads, like that’s that’s a licensing thing that they should be paying you something for that, kind of using your likeness. Uh and typically you pay uh a content creator like monthly for however months you you know you use that that content for featuring that person. Um but some some people just give that up. It’s like, oh yeah, yeah, you can use it, you can use my likeness for whatever you want, whatever you want. You know, so I try to give an example where like, okay, let’s just say you work for a brand, right? And you say, hey, like let’s say let’s say let’s say it was a year ago. You’re like, okay, yeah, you can you did content, you did something great, and then it’s okay, we’re good. We can they can use your they’re using your face for an ad, right? They’re and let’s say it’s a very good ad. They’re constantly using it. And then a year later, you found out that that brand was, I don’t know, using like child labor or something like that. There’s like very, very bad publicity, but they’re still using your face for their content. Uh that could be bad, I can see for yeah, that relationship now. Uh there’s stuff like that where I try to give those examples like that’s like an extreme example, but those are some things to kind of consider why it makes sense to not give someone like you know in perpetuity access to your content forever, however they might want to use it.

Erin: 11:46
You want to be the Taylor Swift of your content, you want to own it.

Alex: 11:50
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex, yeah, Alex. Yes, right.

Carolyn: 11:55
That’s right. That’s so good. I do have a question. Alex, does it bother you when you get trolled or when there’s just all these because I was telling Erin, my thing with social media is that I don’t think it’s good for me mentally to be on social media for long periods of time because it makes me not like people that I normally love. You know, there’s all this stuff. Does that how do you not let those sort of issues bother you?

Alex: 12:21
Yeah, I will say uh one thing I’ve been lucky with is that uh compared to a lot of other creators out there, I don’t get as many trolls, I would say, in general. I also helps you’re likable.

Erin: 12:32
You’re likable. I told you I was fan-girling.

Alex: 12:35
Or like I don’t like uh, you know, put like necessary very contr, like very, very controversial, like like hot takes or something like that. Um, you know, it could lead into that. Um also helps that I unfortunately I’m a guy. And I mean I feel I have talked to some of my other like female content creators, like, oh my god, they they get they can get a lot of crap that that’s went in there. So um yeah, for some time it’s like as a mental health thing. Sometimes you just have to uh not let like you have to kind of do whatever you have to have to guide. You can like you can block you can block keywords or whatever you can you can block them if you want. Uh on my end, like we’ll say that most recently I had like a very super viral video that went out, and I knew that when it goes viral, that it’s gonna reach uh audiences that are not normally in my space. So yeah, I started noticing, oh yeah, there’s some people that are making like kind of some more snarky comments, or like you know, they’re trying to be funny. I also found that by the way, like over time you notice that a lot of these trolls are not creative. Like you found out it’s the same thing again. It’s like, okay, this is kind of that’s one right aspect kind of like okay, that doesn’t really bother me. There’s just like whatever. You know, but I also see it as like, okay, that’s still engagement that people that actually took the time to watch this video and felt, oh yeah, I need to I want to write something. Okay, cool. You help me. That’s cool.

Erin: 13:47
They were inspired to write something because they hated it so much.

Alex: 13:50
Exactly. But then the other aspect too is sometimes, not all the time, but like there are opportunities where you can have a conversation with people like that. So I do I do try if I see something, okay. I get I can see uh like someone says something that okay, I mean that makes I can see where they’re coming from. So I would I’ll say yeah, I’ll reply back and say, oh yeah, that makes I can see where you’re coming from, makes it makes sense, and then I can think this X, Y, and Z, whatever. And you know, sometimes people don’t respond, but sometimes people say, huh, you make a good point. Or like or like, oh, I was just joking. You’re not gonna be able to do that. So like you find like a lot of time people just comment, they’re not really like putting that much thought into those comments. So that kind of helps me. I’m like, okay, this is whatever. I mean, I don’t I mean I don’t really know them, they don’t really know me. So that that part that why I say that doesn’t really bother me because of because of that aspect, you know.

Carolyn: 14:35
That’s that’s great. That’s great, that’s a great way to look at it.

Erin: 14:38
Yeah, yeah. I love that question though, Carol.

Alex: 14:39
I think that’s yeah, and of course it was like someone that I really respect in like the tennis industry then like they’re like destroying me. Oh, okay, then that would be a different story.

Carolyn: 14:47
Okay, Roger Federer or my god, Roger Federer.

Alex: 14:52
What are you doing? You’re wrong, Alex. Right, right. That would be yeah, that would be effective.

Carolyn: 14:57
Thanks to Alex for coming on the podcast. We have one more episode with Alex where he discusses how you can become a tennis content creator, the trends and best practices, and his most memorable moment on the court. Alex’s contact information is in our show notes, and we hope you follow him on Instagram, which is at AlexChan Tennis. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.

SwingVision Affiliate Link and Tennis Warehouse

Use our referral link to get a FREE Swing Stick ($100 value) with your first year of SwingVision Pro. The bundles are only $149.99 (previously $179.99). This is a limited time offer that you won’t want to miss!

We are excited to team up with Michelle from Tennis Warehouse and her “Talk Tennis” podcast to bring you a “TW Tip of the Week!” Use the code SECONDSERVE to get $20 off clearance apparel when you spend $100 or more.

The post Ep. 307: Tennis Content Creation with Alex Chan appeared first on Second Serve Tennis Podcast.